TOXIC Environment! What Should This Senior Software Engineer Do?

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

hey folks I'm going to go to a submitted question this one I feel kind of bad about because I was about to go record uh resume videos for my main Channel Dev leader and I recall that when this person messaged me I said I'm going to go ahead and make a resume review and I'm going to go do a video on code commute but I forgot to do the video on code commute so that's this video um so this person submitted their resume I will address that separately but we're going to talk through uh they added a bunch of extra context and kind of acknowledge like you know they is sharing some of my grievances below as you've shown a strong capacity to feel them that's what this channel is all about uh trying to do my best to you know answer questions for you

from my experience my perspective it's not I'm not giving you professional advice and Advising that you do certain things but um you know if you want your questions answered write them in the comments send me a message to Dev leader on any social media platform it's my main YouTube channel or Nick centino on LinkedIn and I'll try my best um so for those of you that don't know me I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft been at Microsoft for just under 5 years now and then I was an engineering manager at a startup That Grew into a pretty successful company uh unfortunately the most success after I left uh and I did that for about eight years um so been an engineering manager now for almost 13 years um so let's chat through this uh I'm going to go ahead and kind of read

through and summarize what this person is saying but uh the tldr before I get into it is that they're unhappy they've been at a spot for a little bit trying to navigate some things they got a couple things going on on the side um which I think is great but I'm going to go ahead and read some of this just to to give some extra context here so currently unhappy with the Team Dynamics of their current job and they're feeling undervalued and that's going to be one of the things I think that really underscores a lot of what's being discussed here um and they said that they until recent where I've been going above and beyond to try and reverse the damage to my image that's been done all right so uh apparently being talked about negatively behind closed doors which is interesting so maybe

some some toxic culture going on or the other thing um and I I try to do this in my videos where I offer different perspectives right like when people write in or they're sharing a perspective it's obviously no fault of anyone's right it's going to be pretty biased it's going to be their view um now if they're saying like they're being talked about negatively behind closed doors like you know I I want to you know believe that this person is just trying to represent they're observing um so is that actually happening um is it people that are talking about maybe this person is doing something that isn't great we're not really going to know that would love to give them the benefit of the doubt but we're going to talk through this and try to be objective as we as we make some progress here

so at least until recent I've been going above and beyond to try and reverse the Damage Done to their image okay so we don't really know what that damage is necessarily but it seems like there's something kind of ongoing right I take a great deal of responsibility for being disengage early on maybe that's why seemed part for the course at first for the team I was on so maybe where they landed on the company not a great spot um they had a couple of things that were going on in their personal life um I'm not going to necessarily read that out and for then they say and for not having negotiate a high enough salary to encourage me to always do my best work so again when we talk about this kind of thing in terms of uh satisfaction with work work life balance I

made other videos on this and I talked about compensation right like I think it's important a lot of people have this weird feeling to talk about like compensation like it's a little bit taboo uh I know for me like the way I was raised like you know money's not supposed to be everything but there is a point where you should feel like you're being fairly compensated like it should be in my opinion should be motivating doesn't mean you must demand a million dollars an hour or something like that but you know you should at least feel that it's very fair um I feel feel as though there's no one at Myan is willing to advocate for my success in Earnest including my manager co-workers and product managers okay so you're a close network of people including your manager is not willing to advocate for your

success so again um I would say like that's a really crappy spot to be in and then I am curious do these people have a different view of what success is for this individual right again no we're only starting this but just a kind of throw it out there because I've talked about this again in other videos a difference between like I am doing lots of work and I am doing meaningful work we don't know that yet and maybe we won't know as we go through this but something to think about um I always take uh talk highly of and go out of my way to Advocate quietly and loudly for those around me to um to be successful to ensure they are always shown in the best L even when courtesy isn't reciprocated I think this is a good quality in people personally this

is kind of like the way that I think my mother tried to raise me is like we're not going to try and be uh like like words are escaping me uh like Petty I guess um you know if people are doing good work and you see that around you um you know I think let it be known whether that's depending on how people like to be recognized sometimes it's not publicly but letting them know like hey you're doing great and for people that do appreciate it publicly making it known right I think that that can really make someone's day and I think that it's interesting as this person say like I don't feel like people do that for me I think they know the value of that like how much impact that can have for someone it's uh it's it's true right um and maybe

just I'll throw this out there here's a little bit of homework for anyone watching this depending on when you're watching it the next time that you're at work so if you're starting your day watching this or you're watching at the end of the day do it tomorrow literally message someone on your team for something they did recently and say like hey like I thought you did awesome on this I mean don't lie but you know someone that you thought has done great it doesn't have to be anything magnificent and just say like thanks I really appreciate that you worked hard on this and you did a good job I guarantee you you'll make their day and it doesn't take much effort it's pretty nuts it makes a big difference um because that's just who I am as a person and as a leader so I

constantly I'm constantly told how everyone around me values me and likes me as a person yet the words seem vapid and not in alignment with how I'm treated at the company as I'm frequently undermined so again we have this theme going on here right it feels like some sort of toxic work environment people are being you know friendly to this person's face but like the actions aren't matching right um I've requested to be moved off my currenty for multiple years due to an unhappiness and based on the resume um to me that seems like almost from the beginning of their their tenure um and due to challenge communication challenges with their product manager to no avail uh so they're kind of stuck in this spot they feel I've always taken initiatives to ensure every sizable project that I get tasked with kicking off is architect

in a way that's highly maintainable encourages other developers to want to contribute they say Cool Tech Done Right while also taking needed measures to get buy in for managers every project that I've been tasked with kicking off has been an astounding success right so again I I'm just I'm call calling this out because we see like a dichotomy right this person believes they're being very successful they believe they're having a lot of impact they're getting the feedback from what they're saying that people are like hey like you are doing amazing they have all of these signals that they believe are good and that's what they're conveying in their message yet the actions are not lining up now is that because they're being undermined is it because it's a toxic culture or is there perhaps this this scenario where there's a misunderstanding again like they're viewing

things as a success there's and like and I don't know I'm not trying to you know say that this person's lying or being malicious or something I'm just saying like there's clearly a dichotomy where do we where is the discrepancy in all of this right so let's keep going though um I've also had the initiative to progress as a leader On My Own by mentoring an intern rice nice sorry in an impromptu manner uh they requested to do this with new interns but I guess haven't really been given the opportunity so they're kind of just doing it and getting it done which is great aside from job security it seems like there's no good reason to stay with the company and they say that they love the work they're doing and genuinely love and value the people they work with regardless of how they feel

treated so this is to me this is super interesting right they're saying that the actions of the people aren't matching what people are saying but they still genuinely seem to really like working with these people they like the work they're doing I spend a lot of time reflecting on where I can improve especially in regard to soft skills so I feel my potential uh is great and given the right environment and skills to capture it right so then they go on to say and I'm not going to go into the details of this but like basically they're keeping busy which I think is great right they're doing things on the side uh kind of scrolling up to the beginning they say that they're like I mean the reason they sent me their resumes cuz they are searching um and trying to do a little bit

more in the AI space which I I'm saying that in a very general sense um but trying to do more there um because they have actually spent a lot of time at least being around it um building things with it and they're saying as far back as 2017 so before like you know everything was an LM kind of thing so that's kind of the gist of it so I guess like when they sent this in this was just for context for their resume but I wanted to talk about this to see like is there something we can we can think of it now clearly the action they've decided to take is that they're moving on right um they're hunting for a job and you know if I were to think about a bunch of possible I don't want to say Solutions possibilities um bunch of

options that they could consider certainly one of them would be time to move on brush up on the resume and you know I said spoiler alert that's what they're doing so um that's interesting like I said totally viable option but if I think about some of the options here like especially considering they say that they love the work they're doing right they love the work they're doing they love the people they're working with I would be really curious to try and get to the root of what's going on here now we don't like this person's not in this room with me to talk to so um I'm trying to think like if I were this person's Mentor let's say I was working at this company maybe not their peer but like on a different team or something um and I was someone that they you

know were meeting with to have conversations like if they came to me and they were sharing some of this stuff with me I would be really curious like they're saying their manager you know Bas manager co-workers and PMs like aren't willing to advocate for their success I would be very curious to know like can you if you watched my videos before what am I going to say right here right like what are the conversations with your manager look like regarding this this is clearly something that's bothering you right so like have you talked about career progression have you talked about impact and and I'm assuming yes let's assume so like I said I'm not I'm not trying to set this person up like yeah this person emailed me and let's all pick on them no I'm trying to do this objectively right so I would

like to assume that they've had a conversation with their manager about this kind of stuff so like what what's come up right because when they say their manager won't advocate for them what's going through my head is like you probably had career conversations right about progression maybe maybe it's not like hey like you're we're dialing you in for promotion in the next month or something like that but at least getting some level set expectations like hey you're at this level um doesn't really say based on some of their other roles like at least kind of at like a senior level they have yeah seven years of experience okay so least senior so you know the progression may start to start slowing down at this point it's not like when you're first starting you start to see progression in promos maybe a little bit more uh

frequently so but still career conversations are important if it's not for progressing to the next level at least like if there's Rewards or anything like that compensation every company's different but I would imagine that there some type of performance review and you trying to get level set expectations here so when this comes up like your manager should be able to give you feedback about the work you're doing right so I would be curious is is the manager like acknowledging the impact is that conversation coming up and if it's not in terms of feedback like I would say like how do you start structuring some of those conversations to get more targeted feedback right not hey manager like how do you think I'm doing and they go great job pat on the back and then you're like great that's useless um I guess I'm doing good

um instead cu the reason I'm kind of mocking that is like apparently you know they're being told yes good job but like there's no advocation for them so I would try to get more targeted feedback and specifically saying like hey like this is something according to this person like I worked on this project you know uh very successful deliverable uh um what what does your manager have to say about that right because I feel like there's a discrepancy here now I want to be clear because I I feel like I came off a little strong and I was kind of like yeah this person they're clearly in the wrong but no I what I'm trying to say is like if they view their work as being very impactful and very successful I'm not saying that it's not but I I have a hard time understanding

why people wouldn't be willing to advocate for that like is truly the the the company culture the team culture so toxic that people aren't willing to shine the light on anyone else and like we don't we don't have that context to know unfortunately so this is something I would try to talk to them about and say hey like what does this look like for other people are you literally the only person advocating for anyone and no one else advocates for anyone else or do you see other people getting you know uh recognition and encouragement and like great work and like that's happening for other people and it's not for you all right because again I I would have I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I would have a hard time believing that people are just singling this person out and being like we're going

to go like acknowledge everyone else's hard work except this guy like no chance um so I would want to get to the root of why we have a discrepancy there and I think personally one of the best ways to do that my bias is to talk to your manager about it as a software engineering manager I'm trying to think if I had someone on my team that felt this way that felt like my manager doesn't advocate for me I realize that not all of you have managers that have the same mindset as me every manager is going to be different I would want this person to come talk to me it's not an easy conversation to be like hey like by the way I've been feeling that either you're advocating for other people or even if that's not happening like I feel like I'm not

being represented I feel like I'm not getting visibility um in this case it doesn't seem like they're not they're not not not I don't know how many negatives here they are they are being given um you know what seems to be impactful work according to them but is it right like I would like I would want to get to understand that I would want people on my team that felt this way to come talk to me about it because if they felt a particular way and they're like hey look I think I'm doing impactful work you know was I'm leading this big project you know was tasked with setting up the architecture for it um I feel like that's been a success hey Nick like do you think that this was a big impactful project like does that align with business values to have good

visibility and have impact and like let's talk about that you know if like hey Nick like that thing that you said had big visibility and big impact do you think that that was a success what could I have done better right what things do you think went really well on that but like asking more targeted feedback because like I'm saying I feel like this person's view of what is being successful is not lining up with their manager and we if they have that conversation again as if I were mentoring them and they came and you know they're like okay going to go talk to my manager about this stuff and kind of report back and see how go I would just be very curious to see where that conversation ends up if it ends up being like that's just not a thing the team is

doing and like that's not part of the culture which is entirely possible that's why I said I'm not trying to you know point to this person and be like you suck um or you're living in a fantasy world or something like that but I would I would want to know the results of that because if they were like yeah basically that's not a thing that happens within the team okay so what I've talked about in other videos is do you love this team enough the work you're doing the people you work with do you love that enough and do you have the energy to go put into that to try and change that because it sounds like they're doing it or trying to right it sounds like they're trying to say even though other people don't you know recognize others and you know give them

a pat on the back publicly and stuff like I'm still doing that because I think that's important so it sounds like they're trying to do that but this is one of the things I always call out and I say like if you feel passionate about it and you want to put the energy into it I would say like do it and it sounds like they are and it sounds like things aren't changing so then I would say okay next step my next step and again it sounds like they've been trying this this is why I'm not I'm not totally surprised they're like job hunting but next step would be okay the team you're on not a great spot let's acknowledge that and they've kind of said they've been trying to move off that team for a while and they can't seem to get plac in

another team now we don't know the reason behind that they're not getting supported for it are there no openings right it sounds like they've been trying this for a couple of years I'm pretty surprised there's nothing that's come up um and again I'm not saying like oh they must be lying I'm just kind of surprised and I could understand that would be challenging but they kind of did the next next thing that I would recommend which is try to switch teams internally if you like the company and the work you're doing right because some people if we go back a step some people are like look you know I I thought I liked it here but the culture is trash like this is a place to work and I'm done with it if you switch teams you're not it's not suddenly going to be oh

this is so much better if you just hate the company you're at after being there for a while and you're like it's not for me then get out but if it's just something about the team specifically maybe moving is a great option like within the company so they're they've been trying to make some changes on the team not working they've been trying to move teams not working I think it's time I do think it's time that they're they're uh investigating other opportunity so my opinion here is I think they're doing the right thing it sounds like they've been trying to drive those changes and sort of make progress through this so I think my only feedback for earlier in the process would have been like I would be really curious to understand like what do like have you been having some of those hard conversations

with your manager to see maybe a hard conversation with your skip level manager and being like hey like this is what I'm observing like in the org but and the reason I'm I'm bringing this part up is like again if they it seems like they're passionate about where they've been working like and they want it to change for the better so um with that said though um you know I think some of the other things they mentioned like they have been doing a bunch of networking working on stuff on the side I think those are all awesome things to be doing if people have capacity for it like I encourage you to do it I'm again I'm biased because that's how I like to operate I'm always of the mindset like I love to be building stuff I think it's great for learning I think

it's good for like job security if you are building stuff on the side and you're like hey this could maybe turn into something that I could you know if I switch gears a little bit maybe I could try marketing it like there's some usability here I'm not saying anything you build on the side you have to do that but if you were building something for yourself that solves a problem you have like might be an option so it sounds like this person's been doing the networking doing the building and I think that's awesome so at this point you know they're they're trying to get some feedback on their resume so based on the time I still got time before I go to bed I'm going to do that um and yeah I think the only other thing I would advise at this point is like

time to start practicing for for interviewing right they're they're doing the step I'm assuming they're going to be applying to jobs you know getting their resume brushed up and stuff so that's good but now we got to practice the leite code stuff which is garbage we got to do the system design questions right and then behavioral interview questions so I think you know everything's said and done I think they're doing kind of what I would uh again not not giving professional advice here but I think they ended up where I would probably recommend so um wishing this person success and I will give their resume some attention uh from what I looked over I think they've done a pretty good job with it so um spoiler alert but if you want to check that out it will be on my main Channel Dev leader and

if you want your questions answered like I said at the beginning leave them below send a message to Dev leader on social media if you want your resume reviewed then go to Dev leader you can check out the playlist for resume reviews I mention in the beginning of the videos how to submit you can check that out thanks for watching I'll see you next time take care