Being An Engineering Manager In A Startup SUCKS!

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Hey folks, I am going to a submitted question or I guess this one's a doozy. It's a submitted scenario, which is awesome. I'm not not blaming the person for doing this. This is exactly what I would like when someone sends in an anonymous sort of topic or like scenario to go through. So, I have it on my screen behind the camera, so I'm not going to read it out word for word. Um, and yeah, I it's literally fully anonymous, so if I'm like, "Oh crap, I need more information." I can only try my best and I don't even know how to contact the person who sent it in. So, um, it starts off by saying, "Hey, Nick, I would like to know how you handle the stress of being an engineer, being an engineering manager in a startup." I said, "I'm working in a startup that's building its own product.

However, the stress is recently making me crazy to the point that I'm considering quitting." So, I'm going to summarize kind of what challenges they're having and like the framing of some of this again without going through word by word. Um, but they're saying requirements change all the time, not well defined. Uh, this is a startup thing 100%. Um, so might come back to this stakeholders set deadlines without asking me if they are even possible. Uh, also this could be a growing pain kind of thing with startups. Um, and when I provide an estimate, it's uh it's ignored. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm not saying that's normal. I I guess it's not normal, but like in terms of like estimations and like things are just chaotic. But I do think that probably things around estimations and how you have um stakeholders or whether that's marketing, sales, and engineering and product coming together like getting in the groove of that might take some time.

And like I've been in situations where it's like guess what deadline was set. Like buckle up. Um and you try to do as much as you can. Kind of I'll talk through this a little bit more. Um they said that they've worked in startups before. That's good. Okay. But not to this level of disorganization. I honestly I think most startups are just like pure chaos. Not saying that's bad, but it's chaos. Uh there are three people in the team. Okay, this where they get into some uh some details, but okay, so there's more than three people in the team story, but they're about to start describing them, but they said that there's some people that are very difficult to work with. Um there they describe like some differences, right? So whether it's attitude, but like good attitude to work with, but like skills aren't there. um couple individuals that are really shitty team players and uh so they kind of like refuse to go along with things.

I guess this person is managing the team, right? So um comp there's what's the word for this? It's like almost like subordination kind of thing like they're complaining up to a friend that happens to be like higher up in management or something about this person. So, like it's kind of weird like instead of just talking to them as their manager, they're going around them being like screw this person or this guy's a jackass or whatever, this guy or gal, I don't know. Um, and then they say the rest of the team um is very easy to work with. So, that's good. Um, and then they say, "I'm supposed to be the manager, but I've been taking uh on responsibilities of HR, product owner, project manager, coach, and developer." Expected, expected, expected, expected, and expected. You're in a startup. Got to wear all the hats. Um, I don't know.

They didn't they don't talk about the details of like of these other roles and uh sort of stakeholders being built out. Like I remember when our sort of HR leader was brought in which is early thank god. Um but yeah like HR was one person for a long time. So, like you work with HR as a manager very closely. Like I had to work with HR to go build out like career guides like how are we going to level set expectations across all of the engineers in the company when it comes time for performance and rewards and stuff like work with HR on that. Like you get to kind of put on your HR hat and figure that out. If you have to do performance management and stuff like that, you know what does the first termination at the company look like? Like you if you have to be part of doing that with HR if there is no HR like someone needs to be figuring this out.

I'm not saying it has to be you but it has to get figured out. Maybe not all up front but things need to happen as they happen. Um product owner project manager I would say in varying degrees of capacity just absolutely expect that you have this in some capacity in any engineering manager role ever. Um even in Microsoft like I have worked in a team so not a startup I've worked in a team where we had uh no product owner so that was the engineering manager's role but we did have a project manager and they were mostly I I don't want to minimize the work they were doing because it was extremely helpful but their main focus was like helping us coordinate with our uh like other partner teams and then we didn't have a project manager for a while and we survived totally fine.

I'm not saying like they didn't offer value but like when they were there it was super helpful for what they were doing but when they weren't there yeah I went back to being the project manager as well and having to learn like how I'm going to be networking with other teams and understanding the stuff and then coach and developer. Yeah, absolutely. Like I am no longer in my role like doing the developer part at Microsoft, but I do code reviews. I will review architecture with people and they're like design documents, but I'm not writing code. I do write code every day outside of work. And if I were in a startup, I would 100% expect that I'm writing code. That changes if your scope of management increases beyond a certain point.

So like when I started to write less code in a startup was probably when I had like somewhere between 10 to 15 people reporting to me like somewhere in that neighborhood because well at that point too it was just doing other things on top of that just not a lot of time to write code. So I would say all I would expect someone doing all of those in a startup. Um they talk a little bit about some pressure where it's like they're expected to do more development because they're the uh air quotes the most expensive on the team which is kind of interesting. Um but they're saying like they're they're just getting paid like what they consider a normal developer wage but everyone else is kind of like underpaid. Um, but again like what what I'll come back to on this is like you might have expectations put on you from the people that are your boss.

And if they're saying like I don't know if this is this person's boss. They say from one of the uh oh one of the owners of the project. Is that your boss? I don't know. It's not your boss. Like your boss is the one who is setting the expectations for you. if that's someone else like I don't know like like talk talk to my boss then I don't know uh but I would recommend that you have a conversation with your boss about that because your boss should be setting those expectations for you and I would be having that conversation with your boss to say look I'm getting this kind of pressure and like here's the things I'm balancing how do you see my priorities here because I only have x amount of time to do all of these things like I recently had a conversation with my own manager, not about the things I'm doing, but the the priorities of projects that I had a disagreement with.

I was like, that's not how I see this. And I said, if you see it differently, that's totally fine. Let me know. Like, ultimately, from a priority perspective, he will have the final say, and that's totally cool. I'm not there to go argue it and say like, I think you're wrong. I'm just saying that's not that's not been my impression, right? So have the conversation about it. He clarifies. Nope, it's this way. Cool. Now that now that you've clarified the expectations, we are on the same page. I can make adjustments to that. No problem. But it's the same thing, not just for projects, but what you're working on, right? If he came to me and he was like, "Hey, like what's going on with this?" And I was like, "Oh man, like hey, like here's what I've been doing.

Like here's where I'm focusing my time." If he was like, "Why the hell are you doing that not this other thing or these other few things?" I might say like, "Well, my understanding was this was more important." And he might tell me like, "It's not like this is what I need you to focus on." And then you go do that. Now, I realize I'm trivializing that. Like, just go do it. Um, but at least where to focus your attention. That's a conversation with your manager. If you have other stakeholders that are putting pressure on you in other ways and they're not directly respons you don't report up to them so to speak, talk to your manager about that. If uh if you feel like you can't talk to your manager about that, that's a different conversation which we'll probably get into by the end of this.

Um project's been a mess for some time, but lately I get frustrated at being constantly scolded and the attitude of the stakeholders. Um situation sounds and is toxic. Lot of disorganization um and they say salary would be higher with less responsibilities as a software engineer somewhere else. Yeah. But this is like like I'll say this pretty frequently, right? You're a start you're at a startup. Like buckle up. Like I I would be tell this to anyone. I was talking to people at the conference recently who were saying like, "What are your thoughts on, you know, going to a startup?" And I'm like, "Just be prepared to work a lot. It's not for everyone." And I'm not saying that to gatekeep it or to say this person's not cut out for it. I don't know.

All that I'm saying is like I fully expect if I go to work at a startup, I'm probably working an uncomfortable amount and I'm probably going to feel like realistically that the amount of cash that's going into my hand for the work I'm doing probably doesn't feel like a lot. But the motivation would be because what I'm doing, the work I feel that I'm doing is very impactful. So that's sort of like not a payment, but like that makes me feel good and that makes it worth it. Plus the upside potential of equity, but that is absolutely a risk. 100% it's a risk, but that's my framing around that. Not like do I feel like I'm getting paid fair because I would kind of just expect at a startup probably not. I'm probably working more than I should be for the salary that I'm getting. That's my own belief on this stuff.

My camera just did something weird. Oh, it's overheating. Crazy. Let me unplug it. Come on. There's like a temperature gauge thing. I don't know if that's going to fix it or not, but how does a camera overheat? Okay, what else? Um they said that they accepted this as a challenge because and here's a here's a key phrase um because I thought that being promoted to engineering manager is difficult and wanted to get the experience. An engineering manager position I don't give a what anyone tells you is not a promotion. It's not. You might be getting paid more because you're taking on a role and that's what they're offering. Whatever. It is a different career path. It's a different role. It just is. It's not a promotion. And I think that when you look at it like a promotion, you're going to set yourself up for some I don't know some different expectations.

It's a different role. It would in my opinion it's like saying I got promoted. I was a developer and I got promoted to product manager. Maybe that role gets paid more. I don't know. So that feels like a promotion. It's a different role. I understand that as a manager you end up like being in charge of people in charge. Um it's just a different role though. So be careful with that because I think that that that makes people think about it a certain way and I think that that kind of sets them up for um I don't know disappointment. I think that yeah experience though is fair. So for extra context, okay, they're going on to say that this project was led by, you know, one of the people that's more uh closer like one of the executives basically for 2 and 1/2 years and

this individual feels that they've done more than the you know the executive had done in the past 2 and 1/2 years and it feels like they're not getting credit for it as well. So that's another thing. Okay, now to the sort of end of this part. I realize we're like a good chunk of the way into time on this, but I wanted to kind of go through all of it and kind of circle back on some things. They're afraid to quit. They think that the project's going to fail if they quit and their team would lose their jobs or some of the team. They do acknowledge that it's not their responsibility though. It's not. It's not at all.

I would ab unless it was like your family that was being employed I would say like it's just not it's not your responsibility even if it was at some point if your mental health from doing this kind of stuff is not there out that's it I would say it would be awesome if you could find other employment before that happens but if you are literally crumbling and falling apart it might not even be worth it to stay but I don't know this person's financial situation so I can't really make that you know suggestion or recommend But they asked like would you quit for mental peace? Like perhaps that's I think that's a totally viable option. And I would not factored into that unfortunately is what happens to the team. It's not just the reality in my opinion. You could anyone who's watching this can totally disagree with that.

But if you are mentally falling apart, like the way that I think about this is people that like to be helpful, you have empathy for these other individuals. And I think that's a great human quality for sure. But if your glass is empty, so to speak, or your gas tank is empty, right? You do not have anything to to give to others. You cannot do that effectively without running yourself into the ground. And it sounds like at this point you are basically running yourself into the ground which means you can't support those other people effectively. So I would not factor that in. That is the responsibility of of your boss. If you leave that's the responsibility of your boss for how that project is going to continue. Um would you try to talk to the owners of the company? I personally would. I have when I worked at a startup and there was some that I was not comfortable with.

I've absolutely talked to the owners of the company. I've absolutely bubbled things up where I'm like, "Hey, like I am a manager. Yes, I work um I was a technical manager." So, I'm like, "Yes, I work with the other developers. I'm in the trenches, so to speak. I see that you probably don't see, and I think you need to know about it. I'm not telling you you have to do something about it. That's for you to decide. It's your business. But I need to give you this information. I need to give you my perspective on this because I know that you trust me. I know that you respect me. I trust you. I respect you. If I were in your position, I would want to know this. I would want this information so that I could decide if I want to take action or not. It's totally fine to dismiss it.

I'm giving you information and I would much rather do that in the situation, right? If I didn't trust or have respect for people, right? Like if if my leadership I was like screw those people, like they don't care about me or whatever or I don't trust them, there's no respect. Honestly, would if I was already putting in a lot of effort and like also didn't have that working relationship, then it wouldn't be worth it to me. I wouldn't even bother. So I don't know for this person if they feel like they can kind of bridge that and be like look like I think that I could talk to these people. I absolutely would. Right? The the way that I think about this is like do if you were to imagine this in your mind like do you see a positive outcome that could happen if you stay right?

Like what does that look like? you know, proper balance of things. Maybe there there's more people that can get hired in. Maybe there's uh I don't know, things can move around. You have some people that are challenging. I don't know how they're going to solve that interpersonal conflict because I don't think solving that interpersonal conflict means talking to your manager to sort it out. Solving interpersonal conflict is between you and the person that's got to happen. So, how do you envision a positive outcome if you stay? Because if you can't even see what that would look like, then I would say don't bother. Get out. You know, start start interviewing, start shopping around, get out. But if you can see a positive outcome and you're like, I would want that. I would personally go seeing like, okay, what else can I do to make this happen?

But if it reaches a point where you're like, "It's no longer worth my energy to reach that outcome or there's too much friction or I'm not getting the support from leadership that I need or I'm getting the runaround like, oh no, things will get better and they don't." Like at some point you have to make a decision. It's not worth it. Or you start seeing it turn around and that gives you like some momentum and kind of revitalizes you and things move forward. So that's how I think I would approach it is if I see like a positive sort of future there, I would look to go talk to to different people like the you know executives to go clear things up. Um but yeah, one of the other things they say I have uh I wonder if these I also have a wonder if these are responsibilities of the managers.

Yes, everything you said 100% I would expect that at a startup 100%. Um, and even once you grow and the company's bigger or you go to a larger company, most like in some capacity you are doing all of those things. In some capacity, you might not have as much responsibility in each one of those, but some capacity. Yes. Um, one of the things I say is that they haven't um, my previous managers never looked so stressed. That might be from experience. That might be because they didn't give a Like I don't I literally cannot comment because I don't know the previous managers. Some managers don't look like they're stressed about anything because they don't do anything and they're managers. Some don't look like they're stressed because they in their mind they can keep cool, calm, and collected even though they have a bunch of stuff going on and they're like, I know that I just have to do my best and stay on top of what I can and this is how it goes.

and it's in their personality to stay more calm. I try my best to do that, but I have breaking points and I will actually try to talk to my team when that happens. When I realize for myself like I'm feel like I'm reaching that point where like I don't know if I can keep it together. I will let people know. I try not to announce it like publicly to the team like I'm about to break down. It's more like in one-on- ones and say, "Hey, by the way, like you know, we're working on this. You know, you're doing an awesome job." like I'll let them know like I'm feeling, you know, some pressure. I'm trying not to let that, you know, get to you. So, and because I have I feel like I have good working relationships with people on the team. I'd say to them, if you see or feel that I'm doing something that's adding more stress to you, just let me know because I don't want that to kind of bleed through.

I'm trying to do my best here and I would love feedback if that's having an effect on you. That could be that I'm randomizing them. That could be that um I'm asking for updates on something and they're like now it feels like you're micromanaging me. So I let them know I'm kind of starting to feel some pressure or whatever it happens to be. I'm stressed out about something else and just let them know like please be transparent with me because I'm trying to do my best. And I know I've I've literally had people um in recent times, not a direct report, but someone that I work closely with being like, "Hey, like and actually let me know in some cases that I thought that I was being a bit of a shithead." They're like, "No, like that was fine." And like that's that's good. Like I I need feedback like that, right?

And if it was the opposite where they're like, "I think you might have been kind of spilling over," then I would be like, "Cool." Like I'll go apologize or whatever. Like get my head back on straight. But it's this stuff's stressful. It's part of it. You're going to have weird other stresses that you might not have as a developer. And I'm not saying that's because, you know, back to like the promotion thing. It's not because like, oh, this is a way, you know, way more important role. It's no, you're dealing with different You got different stressors, right? And at a startup because you wear so many hats when you end up being responsible for leading groups of people a lot of the stuff will come to you. And I think that it's very important as someone who is leading groups of people to be able to kind of surface some of that.

Where are things falling apart? Where are they crumbling? Surfacing that information to, you know, people that are perhaps above you that can make decisions about like, can we hire more? Is there something else we can do? But if you're raising this information, trying to suggest changes, trying to get support, if it's just not being met, no matter what things you're trying, and you are trying, might be time to move on. So, I think that's how I would frame all that one up. I do realize it's tricky. I don't mean to come across like an like and just being like, "Oh man, this is just startups." But a lot of this is like it's startup stuff. So I realized this person has worked at startups and they said it wasn't so chaotic. I kind of just expect if I were to leave Microsoft and go to a startup, I would just assume it's going to be chaos and the goal is to organize the chaos.

So anyway, I think really interesting challenging situation to work through. I'm very thankful for this person for writing up all this information. I hope that it helps to kind of talk through that. I realize it's not like a perfect solution like step one go do X, step two go do Y, but that's also kind of life. So, um hopefully the perspective is helpful in some capacity. So, thank you so much for sending this in. If you have questions about software engineering, career advice, stuff like that, please leave them below in the comments or you can do as this person did. You can go to codecommute.com. You can submit a scenario question, anything you'd like. There's an anonymous check box. So, like this person, you know, if uh if they watch this and they're like, "Dude, I have no idea what you were trying to say." Basically, you have to submit another anonymous form uh because I don't know how to reach out to you.

Um so, I do hope that it helps, but I will see you in the next video. Take care.