How do I Talk to my Manager About Switching Teams as a Software Engineer?

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, we are going to experience dev subreddit on the drive to work here and the topic is going to be about internal team movement and this person on Reddit was asking how do they go about talking to their manager about it without feeling like they're going to be burning some bridges or is it basically inevitable that there's some bridge burning and how do we navigate that? So, I think this would be a good one to talk through. Um I know like from talking on social media and stuff with people that you know some people work at places where companies are small, the engineering team team is small, right? And like sometimes there's not even multiple teams. So like some people are like there's no such thing as internal movement because there is no place to move to. But um other places like I work in Microsoft and it's a huge company and there's there's definitely a range of companies between Microsoft size and like you know single team size.

So there's I think this is a good topic to go through because there's likely going to be many people that are in a situation where there's you know something in between to look at. So um this one's very very very relevant to me because I'm actually going through this uh in terms of being a uh hiring manager internally. Um and also I have uh I I've moved internally as a manager. So I wanted to kind of share my thoughts on this. Um, I'm not going to focus on my own movement so much because I think that's a little bit less relevant for what this person was kind of asking about. So, a little bit more context. They're saying it kind of seems like, you know, they're the team that they're interested in applying to because there's some open positions internally.

Um, there's a couple of positions and it seems like their teams already kind of work pretty close together and I don't know, I think they kind of framed it like there's some perceived competition between the two sort of thing. So, they're they're already kind of going through the the motions in their head of like, okay, when I bring this up to my manager, like what are the types of questions they're going to ask this kind of thing? And like, I don't know, that's how my brain works. I'm always kind of like, how do we you know, ahead of time, go through all the possibilities. My wife would say that's absolutely not a healthy thing to do. And for me, cuz I think she perceives that as like it's it's just like uh doom and worrying. But for me, it's more like exploration so I can consider options.

I don't know, just how my brain wants to navigate problems. It sounds like this person is kind of doing the same thing. And so I I can totally understand why this person has concerns about it because if they let's say they talk to their manager and they say hey I'm interested in doing this and their manager is like yep fully in support like thanks for talking to me about it and then and then they get selected because they still have to apply internally everything's great right like that's that's the happy path right they talk to their manager manager supports it they get selected they move, everyone's happy with the outcome. Um, now what happens if the manager says yes and then they don't get selected when they apply? Okay. Well, I mean, if the manager wasn't, you know, bothered by it, then kind of unfortunate that they can't get the internal move, right?

But at least doesn't seem like bridges are really burned. Not really. Now, it starts to go like seemingly go a little bit more downhill from that point because if they bring it up to their manager and their manager was already kind of bothered by it, you know, they're trying to make I don't know like I I'm not this kind of way with my employees, so I'm trying to think about how other people might uh navigate this, right? But it's like maybe the manager is like being condescending to the person or the idea of the movement like why would you want to do that? Like what's so special about that team or like you know you're already working closely with them and and kind of just making this person feel like that's not a good option kind of thing and not being in support of it. Um then what then what happens, right?

Um because even if they're like they're not in support of it and they can't block the person from applying. Okay. So then the person goes and applies and doesn't get it now they're they're going to feel like they're potentially stuck in this situation with their manager where their manager now knows like you know you you were trying to escape and I said no. I don't know. It feels like it's a little bit exaggerated, but I think that people kind of go through this and I while I'm making light of the situation, I think the reality is there probably are plenty of managers who are very much like not you're not leaving like our team like you know for example like our team's already shrinking, we can't lose another person like all these types of things. So, I wanted to talk about how I've been having conversations with people that have been applying internally to the position I have.

I just need a sip of water here because I'm about to turn into a pile of sand or dust or something. Okay. So, when I've talked to people that have applied internally for the positions that I have open, um, aside from getting an understanding of the individuals, like you know, why they're interested kind of like I'm not like giving them a technical interview because they've already passed that. They're they're working at Microsoft already. That's fine. I'm not going to I'm not going to give them lead code questions. I feel like there's cat hair on my face. No lead code questions. I don't need to give them system design questions. They're already doing work. I want to make sure that um number one, I like they feel like it's a good fit for them, right? Like if it's a they're trying to change something about their career trajectory, right?

They're on a team and they're not getting, you know, the type of work they're interested in or or whatever. Literally, it could just be, you know, I've been here for X years and I need a change, right? Whatever that is, I want to make sure that what they're looking at in my team that they're seeing advertised that this is not um just a quick escape for them like, "Hey, I'll take anything." Cuz I'm like, "Hey man, there's other internal roles." And if you're like, "I'll take anything." I feel like you should at least go consider what else there is. It might be that they are a great fit for my team. Like I perceive that way, but I still want to make sure that they're not just doing it because it's like, you know, they just pick the first option. Like if you're looking for a change and you're not even sure if this is interesting to you, it's just the first thing.

Please go look at the other options. I'm not saying no to you, but I don't want to go through this process and then you join the team and you're like, "Oh, I also hate this or this also isn't like part of like what I'm perceiving is like how I wanted to grow in my career." Like I just then I feel like no one's winning, right? We go through the process, they come onto a new team, we do this ramp up, they're not really into it, they're probably going to want to leave again. And like again, I I support people's career growth. Like if you know, if we can't make it happen on my team, I would love to help you find another team internally where that is possible. And if it's not, then I like genuinely I wish you success on the next team somewhere else.

That's fine. I want people to be successful in this. So that's the first step for me is making sure that people feel like, hey, this is interesting. This seems like exciting work. I want to do this. It's not just the first thing that they clicked on. Once we go through that conversation though, um, you know, even I I don't I'm not like making a decision in in front of them on the call because like I have other applicants to go through, but I say like it is a requirement um that I have to talk to their manager if we are going to move forward, right? like I need to be able to have the conversation with their manager. It's part of our internal process for it. I would want to have a conversation with their manager for multiple reasons, right? Um to quickly list some of them, uh I would want to get an understanding from their manager, you know, more about the employee because clearly they've been working together for a while.

So, um get some insight and then um I would want to talk to the manager so that they don't feel blindsided. But this creates an interesting situation, right? So, and it's exactly what this person is kind of talking about in their Reddit post, the Reddit question, which is, okay, I'm telling people that that are trying to apply to my role internally, I have to talk to your manager. So, like, have like have you talked to your manager yet? Because if if you don't want to, right? Like, and I'm not forcing them to. If you don't want to, I'm just letting you know. I have to go do that, right? If we're moving forward. So, it's not a matter of if I want to or not on talking to their manager. Like, it's a step that has to happen. So, yeah, like that's potentially an awkward conversation for me, but that's that's part of my job.

I got to go do that. They don't have to, but I kind of recommend it, right? Like if you're This is, you know, the number one theme on this channel, right? Is like level set expectations with your manager. So if you're building up a good working relationship with your manager, and I understand that probably some people want to move teams because they have crappy relationships with their manager. like right if you had a really awesome working relationship with your manager the the likelihood that you're going to want to go leave is probably lower but it's still entirely possible right I' I've literally had people that have left and said like hey you know and I I I don't think they were just talking out their ass but I they were like hey like you know loved working with the team loved working with you uh

and like we had something come up with our like a family opportunity where we're moving countries or uh I had an employee who had worked at Microsoft for I think a couple of years and he was like you know that was his first job out of school and he said hey he's like I told myself that I wanted to kind of try some different companies while I was still you know uh pretty fresh out of school so that I could get different exposure to things. So he's like, "Time is here, right? Like I I, you know, want to stay in touch. You know, I've enjoyed working here, but like I kind of set this as a, you know, a a goal of mine to be able to make sure that I try different things so that I don't feel like I'm going to regret something later from not having explored a little bit." Again, fully in support of that.

So, I feel like it's not it's obviously not impossible that if you have a good working relationship with your manager that you want to leave for change or some other reason, but I I think a lot of people are motivated to leave because they're like, I you know, I I don't have a good working relationship with my manager. So for all of these individuals, I kind of put that scenario in front of them and said, I have to talk to your manager, right? I still have to go through the other internal interviews, but if I move forward with you, that conversation has to happen. So would would you like to make sure that you have a conversation with your manager first? Because if I go do it and you wanted to talk to your manager, I don't want to put you in a weird situation. Right?

The other thing is the way our internal movement works is like even if I'm like, "Oh, I really want this person. I really want this person." Technically, it can get blocked. probably not on my receiving end cuz if I really want the person, I don't think anyone in my org if given that I have an an open internal headcount is going to say, "Nope, we're blocking you." But from the other side, they can technically block the movement if they need to for, you know, whatever whatever conditions that they're putting up, they can uh impose a block on the movement. So, that's the other thing to mention here. And I don't know if it's the same for this individual.

Um, but that's like another layer of complexity is like I could be in support of it, their manager could be in support of it and then their their side of the organization or you know whatever sort of leadership chain they have can say no no movement or for the specific person no or whatever they want to do and then what right so I I literally am talking to these people letting them know, like there are some things that are outside of my control here. And basically, heads up, if you want to move forward on this, this could put you into like maybe what feels like an awkward situation. So, you know, if if you're hearing what I'm saying and you're like, "Oh man, like I'm not ready for that." That's totally cool, but like I don't want to put you into that situation unexpectedly. So try to clarify these things with the individuals first, right?

Uh I feel like I owe that to them. Um just like I feel like if we're going to move forward like even though it is a requirement for me, I I feel like I would owe it to their manager to be like, "Hey, just if it wasn't required, I would still put myself through it and say, look, you know, I wanted to give you a heads up that um this is what's happening." Okay, so far hopefully that makes sense. So in this process, it's really just about making sure people have full awareness of the steps. Um, and I am also trying to communicate to them like sort of where I have input and where I don't because I don't want them to feel blindsided because we had, you know, a good conversation and then they're like, "Wait a second, like, uh, I got rejected from it or whatever else, right?" Like, "Hey, Nick, why did you do that?" It's like maybe it's not me, right?

So, I have found so far that um I believe every single person was like, I I want to talk to my manager first. And um fortunately, I know that there was at least a handful of people who explicitly said like, "No, like I I do have a good working relationship with my manager." Um, which made me pretty happy. Um, because I don't know. I feel like overall when people are like in a situation where they're like, "No, I hate working for my manager. I want out. I I just feel like that's a bad obviously it's a bad spot to be in and I don't want people to make rush decisions. I don't like it." The whole thing just feels off.

Um, and so when I'm hearing people say like, "Hey, no, I do have a good working relationship with my manager." I'm like, "Okay, that means that even if this doesn't work, for some reason, you do have a good working relationship with your manager." And I think this is where some of the more specific things we can kind of poke around and look at come up. So, for example, um, like I wasn't in those conversations with their managers. I have talked to some of the managers so far um kind of like in our level to discuss what that looks like. But um for the employees talking to their managers, I think one of the most important things that I'm trying to make clear to them that they can like bring up in their conversations is like look like ultimately if you're if you have a good working relationship with your manager, if you're looking for some type of change in your career, that's not like a a personal thing with your manager, right?

It's not like, "Hey manager, you suck and like I need growth opportunities. Screw you." It's like, "Hey, like regardless of you being a good or bad manager, the work that I'm doing, the projects I'm doing, and how like where I kind of see my career growth, I don't I feel like I need a change or I feel like I'm not getting those opportunities." If you don't end up getting selected in for this internal movement and now you're like, "Oh crap, like that's going to put me in a weird spot." Like, well, hopefully it doesn't because hopefully, you know, if you hadn't had that conversation before, now you have, right? I don't know for all of these individuals, were they having conversations like this already where it's like, I am looking for a change and like I am looking for different types of projects. Hey manager, can we can we try to find some of those?

Maybe they have been. Maybe they've never brought that up with their manager. I don't know in all of these situations, but the point is hopefully at a minimum, right? like they don't have a a shitty working relationship with their manager. If they don't and they don't get selected for whatever reason, they're blocked or I have to I go with a different candidate, then at a minimum going forward, they go, "Cool, at least we got to talk about this. Now I can feel more comfortable bringing up in career conversations in one ons to say like I am looking for change. I I do want to try something different. I've supported employees uh previously without team transfers where there was some work on like our our partner teams like we all like this is uh on the deployment side of the house um there's a couple of

like small teams that work together under the umbrella of deployment and uh there were other tech leads I was talking to and I said hey like I have someone that is interested in this kind of work are there smaller things that they can pick up so that they can they can kind of get into that and get some engagement, right? Like they're, you know, like we're not talking about a full team move or anything, but at least that's something where they're they're feeling that they can scratch that itch a little bit. And we were like from both sides fully in support of that. So I think that that's a we can look at this almost like a bit of a forcing function to say ideally you were having this conversation before and if you weren't that's cool because it's happening now. I think that's one thing.

Um this person had some other concerns around like um like hey you know uh their manager might say you know why that team like don't you already work closely enough with them? I I think that these types of questions like this person's uh and you know not making fun of them for doing it cuz I said I already do this kind of thing. I don't think that these are sort of appropriate questions that you actually need to have an answer for. And I don't know a better way to say that, but like that doesn't uh that question doesn't matter. So like even if you get asked it and someone's like, you know, don't you already work closely with them? And it's like that's not that's not actually the point. And I think that you need to give that some thought. Like what is the point, right?

Because clearly you're looking for more change than that. So what is the change that you're looking for? You could say, yeah, like I do work closely with them, but I would I would like to be, you know, owning some of those projects end to end. I would like to be spending more time on that stuff. So, it's almost like that question is a bit of a in my opinion at least if you were to get asked that. I feel like that's trying to set you up for like not having a good answer and like kind of stumbling, right? Like that's not a curious question the way it's framed, I guess, is is the the point. Um, I've talked to different people about this type of thing, um, when people are conversing, but um, you can have questions that are generally curious and you can have questions where people ask them because they're setting you up.

Sometimes people are a little bit oblivious to this. Sometimes people are very aware. And it's frustrating because when people are aware of this, they're like, I know that you're not trying to have a conversation with me. You don't actually care about what answer I'm going to give here because I if I say anything, you're just going to try and use it against me. This is not a productive conversation. And I feel like that's the kind of question that's not a productive one. It's a it's like a veiled question, right? I don't I don't think it's fair. Um because if the reality is like I think it usually boils down to a few things. One, you don't like your manager, which is totally fair. Two, um you don't feel like the scope of work you're doing is good. Three could be um when I say scope of work, I mean like the are you just doing a bunch of bug fixes and small features like maybe you want a bigger project.

Three is like the domain that you're in, right? So for me I move from deployment over to the routing plane very different things. So I move domains. Um four could be like work life balance. But I think it's important that you understand like why and I feel like all of these reasons why are quite justifiable and um personally without having to feel like you're, you know, pointing at someone being like you're the you're the problem with the exception of I don't like my manager. And this is what I feel like. If you don't have a good working relationship with your manager and you don't like working for them, what is a way that you tell your manager something your reasoning without burning bridges? Right.

Um, I would probably I mean like if you feel like you can't be honest cuz like being honest is is going to burn bridges somehow even more um then I would trying to think about this now like I I think I I would probably latch on to things like looking for change and and uh uh feeling complacent, looking for change. um different different types of challenges. And again, like if we think like what's the what's the worst case that comes out of this, right? You're you're not blaming your manager. Even the reality is like if you don't get that internal transfer and you hate your manager, you should be looking for a different team or position anyway, right? So, like, yeah, you don't want to burn a bridge like real hard, but the reality is if you don't get that transfer, don't stop cuz like you're probably going to feel like you don't have the growth opportunity anyway.

So, I would probably focus more on like, hey, I'm looking for change. um and just make it uh I would go broad personally I would go broader on things versus like I you know I want to go to this team because specifically they have this technology. I might say like I'm, you could do this however you want, but I might say I'm looking for uh, you know, kind of like what this employee told me when they were going to a different company and I I think they were being genuine, but you could use something like this and it's like, hey, I've been in this spot for a little bit and I am looking for change in terms of the environment, right? Like being able to work with different people. uh it's like whole new experience having to to learn about different individuals, different domain and just keeping it generic like that uh I I think is like is fine because the reality is if you're saying that it's probably not untrue.

It's probably not just super pointed to you know to say like hey manager I hate you. But uh the other thing is like I I think that any manager I'm not saying they will but I think any manager should understand that if you are saying I'm interested in leaving to do something else regardless of what that something else is regardless of what it is. If I'm interested in going to do something else, if I don't get that opportunity now, you should expect that I'm still going to be looking for that opportunity. And I think this is why I think it's kind of silly that some managers are like, "Well, no way. Like, we're going to we're going to block this." because I don't know, they think that they need to protect their empire, their their team or something.

I don't I don't know what the reason is, but like you're I don't know if you could seriously tell me that you're like, I'm going to stop an employee who wants to move teams for for whatever their reason is, doesn't matter. You're telling me you're going to keep them and expect that they're not going to leave or not going to lose engagement? Really, I think both of those things are going to happen and you should absolutely expect that. So, my philosophy has has always been while it might be hard if someone's like, "Hey, I'm looking for change. Hey, I want to do a movement." If someone ever came to me and said that, I would try to find any way I can to support them. If that means that I can find that opportunity in the team, hell yeah. Right? Like we all win.

If that means like I was saying uh where I kind of worked with my greater team, so like a partner team to go find some uh you know some work that someone could do not like almost on the side but like just like in addition to so it cut back some of their normal scope, add a little bit of other scope into their workload. That was a really good balance, but I, you know, was able to kind of help keep that engagement while keeping the employee. Now, long term, is that going to be satisfactory? I don't know. Probably the answer is probably not cuz if they're trying out that other work and they're like, "Oh, yeah, like this is really what I want to do." Cool. Like I would really hope that they're proving that they're kick-ass at it, that they really enjoy it. And then that partner team is kind of like maybe we should maybe we should make this like more of a a full full commitment.

And at that point, like it probably makes sense to me. Yeah. Like am like does it suck for me because ane employees going to leave? Sure. But like at the end of the day, they're people are going to go where the growth is. So, like be part of that. I don't know. Like, it it just to me it just seems stupid to not think about it that way. But this is my opinion. I'm just just a dude. So, yeah. Overall, I mean, I think the kind of the the scariest situation with team movements like this is like if you just have a really bad working relationship with your manager in the first place. Um, but uh I I guess like I don't know if this helps, but my my sort of thing that I want you to remember is like if you don't if you

have the conversation and you don't get you don't get the team movement and you're worried about bridges burning, if you really have a problem working for the manager that you have for whatever the reason is, you will continue to look for other opportunities. So, as long as you're not being an to them, like you're you're not actively setting the bridge on fire. You're just trying to keep the bridge intact, keep looking. You'll find other opportunities. And for folks that um you know, it's not like an actively really bad relationship or something with your manager, maybe it's neutral, maybe it's good. I think honesty is is the best policy right personally because if it doesn't pan out for any reason at least you were able to have a conversation like hey I am looking for for growth I am looking for you know opportunities in a different domain different challenges whatever it is for you at least now you've had that conversation so that is my spiel Bill, that's from Experience Dev's subreddit.

Hope that was somewhat helpful. We got to find a parking spot now. Um, a friendly reminder that this qu Oh, no. That's okay. We got this spot. I don't like this spot. This channel is uh primarily driven by the questions that you submit. If you don't, then I go to Reddit. Um, but with that said, leave questions below in the comments. And of course, you can go to codeccomute.com if you want to submit them anonymously. We're probably going to have to do like 10 attempts at this cuz this spot sucks. But the nice thing is I only like parking in spots where people can park on one side of me. We'll move up a little bit so I don't ding my door on that. Cool. Um, what else? Yeah, if you enjoy this kind of stuff, uh, and you want to help out, uh, Daily Dev or Reddit, if you want to share stuff back, there would be super helpful for me.

I do appreciate it. Just trying to grow the channel. If you find it helpful, hopefully other people do, too. So, I will see you in the next one. Take care.