It's INEVITABLE! Software Engineers MUST Choose Manager or IC

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, I'm driving home from work. We're going to go to Reddit for another topic. This one is from experienced devs. It's my go-to spot. Um, this one is, "How are we feeling about transitioning into management in the modern job market?" This is a huge post. I'm not going to read the whole thing cuz I want to go home. Um, that means I have to drive and I can't read and drive at the same time. So, at least not legally, I guess. But uh as software engineers advancing into the twilight years of the career, you know, around your late 30s. Oh no, that's coming up. Um they're saying uh you have we're faced with a choice between digging our heels in for the long haul with the intention to retire as an individual contributor or transition over to the management track. I don't I don't know.

It feels weird. I don't necessarily agree that that's like the thing that happens, but we'll keep going. Uh not everyone becomes super jaded about technology and software but a lot of us do. They feel they're saying like another 25 to 30 years feels like it's going to be pretty rough as an IC. Um you know then they go on to say managers are like sponges for the most stressful problems at the company. Uhhuh. Yeah. Go on. Tell me more. Um you then try to put together a team and a schedule that solves the problems with limited ability to solve them yourself but full responsibility for the outcome. Um, lastly, I'm cons, there's a little bit more there. Lastly, I'm considering the the labor market. I agree with the consensus that things like layoffs and offshoring are cyclical, but I also think that factors like remote work, rise of English around the world, and ever improving internet access and speed are going to be great for developers globally.

Um, but then they're kind of saying that means it's going to be maybe trickier for people like in the US in terms of it being more competitive, I guess. So, share my thoughts on this, I guess. um says the drive home is going to be uh like 17 hours or something ridiculous. So, woohoo. Um you're stuck with me unless you turn me off. Um but please don't stick around. It'll be fun. If you have questions that you want answered, send them in in the comments. If it's about software engineering or career development, I'm happy to chat about that, make a video response for you. That's what this channel is all about. Otherwise, I go to Reddit for topics um or come up with them on my own, which is it's a real pain in the butt. Um and of course, if you want stuff answered, but you want to be kept anonymous, then send in the questions to Dev Leader on social media.

It's also my main YouTube channel with edited videos, tutorials primarily in C for programming, live streams on Monday nights at 7:00 p.m. Pacific, and then a podcast of sorts where I interview other software engineers and talk about their careers. So, management, um, I think that I might take a slightly different direction than what this person's kind of talking about. And I think it's because it's rooted in a I guess like a a philosophy I have in terms of uh our careers, right? So I think some of the things that they're talking about, I'm not I don't want to say like they're invalid or anything like that. Um they're just that's kind of how they're approaching the thought process here, right? Totally fair.

Um I think what I would call out is like in terms of management versus IEC like management is is a people job you're deal like it's all people and every time that someone gets into a conversation with me about how it's not for some reason um I just feel like they're talking about problems where you should be making it a a people thing and you're failing to do so. So, um, like in terms of your responsibility as a manager, so the way that this person's kind of navigating the thought process here, uh, I think the way that I would structure it is more like, have you found that you enjoy working solving people challenges more or being hands-on solving technical challenges more? Now, that's how I would frame it. I'm not saying that's the only way to do it. Obviously, it's not because this person had a different approach.

And you might think about things differently, too, and that's totally cool, right? There's no like single way to do this. But for me, it's a people focus versus a hands-on technical focus. The cool thing about engineering managers is that even though it is a people job, it's not like you're not talking about technical things, right? You're surrounded by people that you are leading and managing on technical challenges, right? You don't depart completely from the technical space, but you do need to invest your time heavily into people. So the reason I say this is because like my philosophy for career stuff is that I have the belief that because we spend the majority of our our lives working, right? It's like you're going to be doing this stuff for a long time. You can switch careers, you can do other things, but if you you know, if you're in this space, like I I just feel like you should be doing stuff that you like, right?

And it it needs to at least allow you to have um you know, put a a roof over your head, food in your mouth, you know, support your family. Like there's there's got to be some financial stability there that helps you get through what you got to get through without a doubt. But like I think that when it comes to optimizing this stuff personally, you you need to be doing something that you like to do. You can make money doing all sorts of things, right? But if you're not enjoying it, like what are you I don't know. Like, what are you chasing? Come on, Tesla. We have to merge onto the highway. And you can't do that by driving below the speed limit. That's better. Okay, now that we're away from the slow cars, we can continue.

So, you know, I think it's I think the concerns or the the different things that this person is bringing up are totally fair, but the things that I would be focusing on are like, do you like doing people related things? If you enjoy spending your time focused on people, challenges, helping people grow, um solving people, uh like interpersonal issues, that kind of stuff, coaching people, mentoring, um career development, if you enjoy that kind of thing as a primary focus, then I think management could be a great opportunity. If you like, if the thought of that makes you like, absolutely not, man, like I don't want to be doing that. People got problems with each other, like count me out. um I don't want to spend time mentoring people. Maybe you do enjoy that part. You can still do that as an IC, right? There's there is some overlap, especially more senior IC's, right?

You get technical leadership and stuff like there's uh there is overlap. I'm not saying it's mutually exclusive, but in terms of your primary focus, right? Um if it's not people, I don't care what the other factors are, honestly. like if you don't like working with people, it's not going to be a good time, right? They're talking about the labor market and stuff and like I'm not I'm not saying that it's not worth considering or talking about. I'm just thinking like let's put it this way. If let's say that it is becoming I'm just using their example. It's becoming more competitive to be a software development or software developer in today's market and that's because of the reasons they pointed out, right? Uh so just there's more talent available globally. Come on, merge in buddy. Let's go. Um it's it's a 360 camera day, honestly. Like it's not on my car, but it should be.

Um, if if all that's true and you're like, "Well, I guess I better try to position myself for a different role, like if you don't like being around people and dealing with people problems, why is being a manager a good option? Like that feels like a terrible option. Like why not do something else entirely?" Right? If your concern is just on the job market part, okay, like if that's true, then maybe don't be a software developer. if that's true, right? I don't know. But if it is, then like I feel like if you're if you hate doing people things, then being a manager is not a good option just cuz it's also in the software development space. Like eh, I don't know, man. Not what I would recommend. So that's why I'm saying like it's not really the the direction that I would take when trying to figure this out, right?

I think it needs to be like, do you enjoy doing it? Oh my god. Come on. Why are we stopped? This is brutal. Sorry, I got to merge over a bunch of lanes. And there's like there's two oversized transport trucks and everyone is stopped and there's no reason to be stopped. One more lane. That person almost got hit. No signal. Switch lanes into the fast lane. H man. Just like you know some days like today was actually pretty good. Today was pretty good. Can't really complain. But like we got a lot of stupid people in cars. That's okay. Um, so in terms of, you know, this person's framing, kind of said it, not the direction I would take. Um, but I do think that it's a common it's a common consideration, right? Like IC versus management track. Um, some places I think this is becoming less common fortunately, but some places almost like um like funnel people into a management track, which I I don't really agree with.

So, hey, like you're a great icy. And then, sorry, there's a cop sitting in the on the shoulder, but not with a radar gun. Very weird. Um, so yeah, you're a great IC. Like, we're going to promote you and now you're a manager. And then it's like, yeah, but is that actually a promotion? Like it might come with a pay raise in in most cases. I guess it's a different role though. Like very weird. This is going to be probably the worst drive. Um unbelievable. So when you have to go from okay, you're doing great as an IC to like being forced into a management track to being like as part of your promotion. Like it's a different role and you might not enjoy it as a side effect of that. You might be bad at it.

So, you go from being like someone who's excelling as an IC to to someone who's like doing okay or subpar as a manager or you're in organizations where there's other managers like this and it's like that's the norm and you might still continue to do well as a manager in your career but like everyone hates the managers kind of thing. Like I don't know. I think it I personally think that's a recipe for disaster. when you just like blindly promote um IC's into management positions. Um so I'm just checking to see if my stuff is charging. The answer is maybe wasn't charging the whole day even though it's been plugged into this battery pack. Um cool. I think that's better. But then you do have people that are interested in management, right? So it's kind of hard to be like I'll I'll admit this as someone who became a manager with very little experience.

Like it's I feel like it's hard to do a job as a manager effectively unless you have some experience uh ideally in the area that you're managing, right? I think that helps a lot. I don't I don't think it's necessarily required. I think it's very helpful, but you need to have time working with people. Like I think that's a that's a must. So, and maybe that sounds obvious, but um I I think that you need that because if you don't have that, your entire job is trying to like solve people problems, right? And if you don't have experience navigating, even if you're not a manager, but like navigating different sorts of people challenges, it's going to make it really difficult to be able to lead teams effectively. So, I know this person was saying like, oh, like, you know, I think they're h like half joking, right?

But like in your in your late 30s, you're kind of faced with IC or manager. Yeah. Like I I don't know. I don't again I don't know if that's how I'd put it but it's like there's probably a point in many software developers careers where they're thinking about it. The point of me talking through these parts is like I want people to be I don't know aware that promotion path in an IC like career trajectory does not need to like arrive at management. I would say if you're working at a company that that's the only career growth. Like I don't think that that's good personally because I think that it's going to put you into a position where you're doing something that you might not love and then as a result you might not be good at it. Now you can always get better at things but if you like genuinely don't enjoy doing the people stuff it's not going to be great.

And if that's the only sort of way that you can continue to grow, it's like I feel like that's just not a good uh good setup. So my thoughts here are I've talked with people that you know even earlier in their career they kind of have a feeling like I enjoy that kind of stuff. Like it seems exciting to be in a position where they can be helping other people or they can be talking about career development and stuff. Um, I've seen what I would call or like um I don't know like good good motivations for wanting to be a manager. Um, you know, I could sit here and say I think the wrong motivation is just like I want to be I want to be the person that's in charge cuz I'll tell you as a middle manager uh sometimes it don't feel like you're in charge of very much at all.

Um, but you're responsible for a whole lot. You're accountable for a whole lot. So, I think this person had a really good call out in their post where they're like, you know, managers get sometimes like the most stressful parts. Um, it's kind of true. Um, middle management is uh not sometimes not that sexy, right? Yes. Um, yes, you lead and manage teams, so you have direct reports. Woo. Um, but like it also means that you are responsible for helping people grow in their careers. You're responsible for helping them do their their best work possible. That means if they're having different types of challenges, like you need to be there to support them. So hopefully you enjoy that kind of thing, right? Not every day is going to be easy. There's certain things that like I definitely don't love doing, but overall like I I want to give you an example, right?

Let's I'm going to talk about um because it's very relevant. I had to do a conversation today and um so my manager is currently on vacation spring break. Um not that he's like out partying for spring break. like that's every time people say spring break, that's what I think of, right? But uh no, he's he's on spring break. Uh you know, family at home and stuff. So, he's out. We got a couple other managers that are in the office. Um and we had to make some some changes that are kind of coming coming down that we had to kind of communicate to the team. Um and they're a little disruptive, right? So, it's kind of unfortunate. Um it's like short notice, kind of disruptive and I think for the most part it's like people aren't super excited about it. Um it's not not layoffs, nothing like that.

Um just like changes in terms of uh sort of like responsibilities and expectations and stuff like that. And what's really cool is like and just you know shout out to Microsoft. Um, I actually really appreciate that they were um I don't I don't think it's private, but I don't want to go into the details of what it is just because it's I don't think it's necessarily relevant. Um, but they they were focused on, you know, providing what I think is a focus on fairness across um some different geographies. And I thought that was really cool. And it's actually not how I was thinking this was going to to come into play. I thought that they were going to do some exception in some cases and then kind of like minimize, you know, um what the scenario was, but instead they were like it's a little

bit more disruptive, but they're like, "Hey, like no, this is more it's more fair for everyone." And I was like, "Hey, that's actually really cool that they did that because I genuinely appreciate that. It's just that it's disruptive." So where that brings us to is my manager's out and so I have a portion of the team that reports to me that all kind of bubbles up to him and uh sort of everyone that's under him though and other teams and stuff they're affected by this communication. Um so they're going to be involved and like I said it's not like it's short notice. It's not super exciting for people, but it's got to get communicated out. Um, so we have some call it like constraints to work within. There's um structure set up. Like I said, this is set up for for fairness across geographies, which I do think is really cool.

Um, so there's some, you know, sort sort of rules constraints to play within and it's been communicated out, but because there's not a lot of hasn't been very receptive, I needed to be able to facilitate a conversation with the whole team. The problem is like like the feedback like we we don't get to change what it is, but we can sort of uh voice the concerns and kind of work as a team to make sure that we're that we're working together to address them. Where this puts me is I'm the messenger. and the messenger for the crappy news or the news that a lot of people aren't super excited about. I think people know and they understand it's not like Nick was, you know, sitting in a in a vacuum making these decisions, but if they have concerns or questions, and rightfully so, it's like it's kind of abrupt for for them, they got to ask them.

That's all going to get channeled through me. So, like genuinely, do you think that I enjoy situations where I am, you know, put on the spot to be the messenger and probably have a lot of people that are a little bit, you know, disgruntled about something? The answer is no. Like, I don't I don't like that. I don't know anyone that does. But like it's it's part of the job. Now I say that not being like, "Oh, this sucks. I hate it." And I'm complaining about it. I don't like that. I know it's part of the job. But you know what's really cool? Like that's actually something that I can put effort into, right? It's not an easy conversation. But I've had to do this kind of thing many times. Going through it, I feel like in my opinion helps build trust and respect with the team.

I can be transparent with them. I started off by saying like, you know, here's actually what I thought was happening. I was surprised by this as well, but I think that it's really good. Do I think it's going to be an easy change? Absolutely not. No, it's going to be disruptive. Of course it is. But I do think that if we work together and we can sort of raise awareness or like talk about the concerns we have, then we can absolutely continue to make things better and close any gaps. And I mean that genuinely. That's not like me just bullshitting. The only way that we get better is if we talk about the things that are feeling like they're frustrating. Otherwise, how do do we just guess at what to make better or never make anything better? So it feels good after to be like, hey, we had that conversation.

I feel I feel proud that I could be part of that that I could try to represent both sides. Right? This is the this is the interesting part with management. It's like I feel like I could represent sort of from the leadership perspective. I didn't make the decision. I'm passing it along, but I'm I'm on board with it so I can represent that side. And then I get to hear the feedback from the team. I get to hear their concerns. And now it's my responsibility to go represent the team. It doesn't mean that I'm going back to leadership and fighting the change. No, I told the team this is this is what's happening. These are the constraints we work within and now let's try to make it so that we can do a good job within that. But now it's my responsibility to work with the team, to work with the other managers to do good work here.

That feels good. I like being part of that. I don't like the hard conversation that happens in the beginning. So yeah, like as managers, you kind of get on from a bunch of different directions, but it's really cool to be part of like, you know, being part of the process for how we make things better. This is absolutely an example of like, you know, people challenges to work through. You have people that are upset about things. You have people that are that have questions. They're uncertain. They need clarity. They need level set expectations on things. Has nothing to do with code. Has nothing to do with our system design. This is all people stuff. But that's part of the job, right? It's like not every day is going to be uh not every day is going to be easy. And some days we have to have hard conversations.

But again, you put in the time and the effort to try and build trust and respect with the team. And ideally, they know you're coming from a good spot. And the way that you keep the trust and the respect from the team is by acting on what you're you're saying. So, if I took all their feedback and then said, "Thank you so much." and then just discarded it and never brought it up again, that trust and respect probably not going to be improving, right? How do you trust a person that doesn't take action on what they're saying, right? So, anyway, this is like, you know, one example of you know, I I know what's part of the job as a as a manager. We have stuff like this that comes up periodically. Um, it's not stuff I enjoy every day kind of thing. It's part of it.

But ultimately, like when I think about the stuff that I love doing, this is like I've partitioned my life in a slightly different way, right? So what I was talking about a little bit earlier is like for your career, I think that it's important that you love what you're doing. And I mean it genuinely. I know it sounds like it's fluffy but like I mean it because you spend a lot of time doing it, you're going to die. And like you might as well be trying to do something that you enjoy. And you can't absolutely love every day. Not every day is going to be, you know, sunshine and rainbows. Today was a hard day for me. It was a good day. It was challenging, but it was a good day. Aside from this drive, but like I'm glad that I'm doing the stuff I'm doing.

Like I I do enjoy it. Now, the reason like that I I've been able to strike a balance is like I love to code. I could never give up coding. I love to build stuff. But my role at Microsoft, I'm not coding every day. I don't code at all in my role, but I code every day outside of work. So I have found something that works for me. All right. I can still code. In fact, what's what I found since moving to Microsoft from the previous place I was working is like because code is not part of my work, I actually feel like I can enjoy coding more. If that makes sense. Um I'll give you an example. I complete tangent, but I remember like I like training for bodybuilding. Okay, so I like I don't know why seems really weird to say, but like I like the consistent routine.

I like eating the same stuff. I like training that way. I like everything about it. Just really enjoy it. It aligns with my personality. Everything about it is great for me. But sorry, there's another cop. Why are there so many cops? Um, very weird. But I think for for me when I was like, "Hey, I want to do a bodybuilding show." I was actually and it was true. I was very afraid that like when I made it like a job, wasn't a job, but like now I had to really, you know, I had to be accountable. It was no longer for fun. It was like for a goal. It started to take the fun out of like out of the process for me. Suddenly, it wasn't fun to go to the gym. It wasn't like I can do that to like clear my mind or whatever.

It was like no, like you just finished at work, now you got another job to go do. Why? Because your training must be extremely intentional. Your dieting must be extremely intentional. And I'm like all of a sudden it's not there's no joy. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy coding before, but now like that restriction is kind of lifted. I can just if I have time to go build things, I can build whatever I want. And that's really cool for me. So for me, I've been able to separate the coding part from my career. Um, and then everything coding related is on the side. It's extra. It's for fun. But the people part is is the career for me. And that's why I've talked about before. For me, my focus in my career is well, I've been managing people. It'll be 13 years this summer. and um like five years at Microsoft, eight years before that at uh at Magna Forensics.

So if I've been managing people for for 13 years, like I see like I would like to be managing managers. I would like to move into that role where I can help other managers be successful. But that's me focused on the people like side of things, like the people career progression. So, I don't know. It's It's kind of interesting. I I don't know if like I didn't really see I didn't scroll through the comments on this Reddit post, but like they're talking about the job market, but they were talking more specifically about they were saying like internet speeds are getting better across the world. Um you know the fact that there's other like they're talking about countries that have been considered more like developing countries are having better resourcing. So there's basically just more availability of developers, right? And I think the kind of hint here is more developers for cheaper, therefore more competitive job market because of that.

Um, they didn't seem to bring up AI and I was kind of curious. I didn't read through the comments like I said, but is that going to be something else where people are like, well, you know, programmers are cooked, developers are cooked, so I should be a manager. Um, which I think is interesting because like who who you going to manage? Um, so I hope that's not a thought that people have like, hey, if developers are going to be replaced by AI, I guess I should be a manager because like the reason, well, the reason my role exists is for the people that I'm managing, right? If it's not people, am I now the AI overlord where I get to tell all of the AI agents what to do? Maybe, maybe that's what that means. Maybe that's how my role develops.

We get rid of all the software developers and then Nick can just sit in a room and talk to AI agents and get mad at them not doing what I expect them to do. Um I don't know but um I've kind of felt like on at least on the AI front if uh if people decided like okay developers are getting more replaced by AI let's say I don't like framing it that way. I think it doesn't make a lot of sense. But if people were saying, "Hey, we don't have to hire as many developers now, right? We can keep development teams a little bit more lean with less people because they can do more. Okay. Um, sure. Don't really like the idea. I I just think that the I just think if you already have people, like why would you not just make them more effective?" Because I think that's what AI does.

But um kind of felt like if I needed to because I've been keeping up my technical skills, I could move back into being an IC. And if not, like because of the whole AI thing, um then I could be a manager. But I just think that I don't know like the either way the role those roles are changing right like I will be I'm sure that I will be expected to be using AI more and more and more in my role and obviously we're already seeing with developers that's the case. So um the reason like in terms of like safety and stuff, do I feel safer as a manager? Like the answer is yes a little bit. And the reason I say that is because as long as there's people employed, I feel like you're gonna have people that are focused on career development and as a result and like interpersonal things like as soon as you have people, you need people to help them navigate their their things that they got going on.

Could you use AI for that? Like I'm sure people would argue yes. But I don't know, like do you want an AI manager that's like the least um I'm sure some people would say that AI as a manager would be more uh more personable than their current manager, right? I'm sure there's some people that say that, but um not not how I operate at least. I try to make sure that I'm I'm personable as much as I can be. So, I don't know. I feel like uh either way, if I needed to career-wise, I could lean either direction. It's just that I prefer to focus on the people side of things. It's more enjoyable for me, and I was fortunate enough to find that out. So, again, to this person's Reddit post, like, I think you need to find what you enjoy. If you've been an IC for that long and want to try it, by all means, like why not explore?

If you're curious, why not? Is there an opportunity for you to be a tech lead or a team lead and have some more of that uh responsibility without fully committing to a management role? If so, that could be a great way to kind of feel out, hey, if I'm spending more time doing people things, what does that look like? Do I hate it? I have more meetings now. I have more conversations with people. Do I hate this? If you're kind of enjoying that, that might be a good sign. But I think that's what I would recommend versus like the framing kind of seem like, hey, like it's either one way or the other and I'm going to be like got to got to make a decision. Like I don't know, like feel it out. If you're already on the fence, if you're not, if you know that you don't like working with people, don't I don't think it's uh I'm saying that wrong.

You're going to be working with people no matter what. I mean, like, if you don't want to be dealing with like people challenges where you're responsible for helping navigate people challenges, then I would say like you don't want to be a manager. You're not going to enjoy it. It's either cop number four or five depending on who's counting in this video. crazy. Yeah, I got to wrap it up there cuz this is like a feel like it's a pretty long video. I think I've said what I had to say. Um, yeah, I just have a different set of factors that I would consider if you want to move into management versus being an IC. So, um, let it be an option at least. Don't, uh, try not to force yourself into a path that's, uh, not something you're going to enjoy. But thanks so much for watching.

I will see you next time. Take care.