Dealing with WRONG Feedback as a Software Engineer

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Hey folks, we are going to experience dev subreddit for a topic today. This is how do you deal with feedback that is just dot dot dot wrong. Um so let me get driving here. The context is that um someone is talking about feedback they receive in their performance review. Sounds like they had a manager change. So they're saying the feedback they got was kind of surprising as in it was like was a negative from their new manager in their performance review. And um they're saying they think they understand how it came about and it seems like their previous manager um I think this person's at like senior staff level so they're not like a junior or anything like that. They're pretty seasoned and um I I think the the part is that their previous manager had given them like set some expectations that this person just like quite frankly didn't agree with.

Like it seemed kind of extreme. Um, so they're saying looks like their new manager is essentially like that's what their new manager is kind of going by. So this person's now receiving negative feedback. So it seems I guess the the point is it kind of seems like it's channeled from the previous manager. So they're saying, "How do we go about this?" Right? Because on one hand, they want to contest it. Sorry, I'm completely out of breath from CrossFit. Um, they want to contest it because they they don't agree with it. And if it's truly kind of the carryover from the previous manager, like this is already sort of a a belief that they had, it's not really new. So they're like, do I contest it? And then risk being sort of labeled as this person who's resistant to feedback, not a team player kind of thing.

Um, that's one direction. And then the other is like, well, what else do you do? Cuz it seems like the feedback's kind of uh kind of ridiculous. So, they say like, "Do I ignore it and just kind of continue on?" Um, I did a quick scroll through the comments. I think the first one that's right below was like, "You leave." Like, that's the the third option, right? It's like not even ignore it. It's like just get out of there. Um because clearly the people that are sorry when I say clearly I mean from this person's perspective clearly there's a misalignment and um if you're not going to be sort of aligned with management um like philosophically on the things like it's probably going to be hard to find any forward movement. Um so I thought this would be an interesting one to talk about. I am driving back from CrossFit, so this will be a quicker than normal video compared to the office drives.

But friendly reminder, if people want stuff answered, leave it below in the comments. I'll do my best to respond to software engineering and career topics. Otherwise, you can message in to uh to Dev Leader on social media. And uh if you send in a message, I'll keep you anonymous. If it's in the comments, your username and stuff is totally public, so uh it ain't anonymous. But with that said, how do we navigate stuff like this, right? Um, part of me wants to say like, you know, typical software engineering kind of uh answer. It's like, well, it depends. Because I think it does. Um, I think it depends a lot on the working relationship with your manager. Um, if you've watched any video of mine where I talk about your career and stuff, I always emphasize that like a solid working relationship with your manager is really important for career advancement.

And this I mean it's going to look different for everyone. So, I'm not saying there's one right or wrong way to do this, but um I I feel like in general people don't have to have the exact same perspective on everything, right? It's like it's kind of unrealistic to say that people are going to have their own opinions, their own perspectives. It's just kind of life. But when it comes to expectations in your role, I think like you need to have alignment on that or else it's always going to feel like friction. At the end of the day, like the end of the day, your manager is the one who puts you up for promotion. They need to have sort of the the evidence for your promotion to put you forward, right? Like that's that's how it happens. That's the minimum to get it going. Um, you know, I'm assuming at this person's level, if it's, you know, like mine, it's it's not even just sufficient um for your manager's approval.

It's not even sufficient for your skip level manager's approval. So, it's required, but not sufficient. So, like at a minimum, I guess that's what I'm saying. As a minimum, you have to be on the same page as your manager. Um, okay, buddy. That's not going to work for getting on the highway. We have to be trying to get to highway speeds. Uh, my god. So, what are the options? Right? I don't disagree with all three of those options. I think depending on the situation, you could approach all three. Um, I think if you have a good working relationship, especially with the new manager, um, leaning into the first option, I I think that there are ways to do this. Um, I never think it's a good idea, like in any situation, to like sort of attack or belittle or undermine people. I think it's okay to disagree for sure.

There's ways to do that respectfully, right? So in in this context if we have a new manager uh that's carrying over the feedback from the previous manager the reality is like if like where I'm at Microsoft um if I came in and I I have done this right I've come into a team twice now at Microsoft um and it's not like everyone on my team started with me. There's people that have experience on the team. There's going to be people that were doing exceptionally well before I got there. There's going to be people that may not have been doing well. There's going to be people in the middle. You know, for the most part, people are in in that middle range, but there's going to be these sort of exceptional cases at the top and bottom of performance or whatever other challenges uh or or exceptions, right?

And when I come into a team, I can't just like wave my hands and like erase whatever prior experience there was. I need to work with the previous manager to channel that feedback. Now, going forward, I'm going to be creating my own perspective, right, out of that, but I can't just like erase any feedback that's happened before. Um, and like I I feel like that would be wrong, right? Like if you've been you have a manager, let's just take a year time frame. You have a manager who's been working with someone for out of a year between performance reviews, 8 months, right? The majority of the year. Then you have a new manager that comes in. Let's say that's me in this case. And there's 4 months to the next performance review. For the first couple months, I'm getting ramped up and I'm getting to learn the team and and understand and go through this transition period.

So there's only going to be like a short window of time where I'm I'm forming like my own perspectives on things like independently. This is kind of the reality of it. I might have perspective from the beginning, but compared to the manager that spent, you know, at least 8 months with this person, it's going to be dwarfed. The other thing to mention though is like especially if this person was having some challenges before and they've been on the uptick like in terms of correcting performance issues and things like that then like yeah I'm going to have you know like my feedback will perhaps look more biased towards like improvements and things like that. So the reality is like it's going to take both people to have a conversation. my window down for a second and feel like I'm like overheating. It's just a lot of cardio this morning.

Um, so I guess what I'm saying is like if you if you're building up that good working relationship, I don't think there's anything wrong with challenging, but like you also need to understand that like it's not, hey, I disagree with it, therefore like therefore your opinion is just wrong in the matter. It's like at the end of the day, the manager is going to, like I said, the manager is going to be the person that puts you up for promotion. So, this is why it's like if you have that conversation and you try to do it in a constructive way to get alignment and get, you know, understanding, if at the end of that, and if you know, good conversation, let's say, if the end of that you're still like, okay, but we aren't aligned and I don't think that I'm ever going to be in agreement with what's expected of me.

I don't think that it's wrong to say like therefore it might be worth considering other options. It kind of sucks, right? Like no one I don't think anyone wants to be in that situation. Certainly as a manager, you know, if I was giving someone feedback about the expectations of their role and level. If if we had a good conversation about that, they're like, I see what you're saying, but like ultimately I don't agree that that should be what I'm expected to do in my role and level. Like if that's what the expectations are that I'm channeling from the business, then like I wouldn't be excited about it. But if that person decided like therefore it's not a good fit for me, I can't be like I can't be upset by that.

What I mean to say is like I mean I'm allowed to be upset but I mean I can't can't blame myself right it's different if it's like someone is trying to say I think the work I'm doing reflects this right that's something where we might have different perspectives on it but if someone's like I fundamentally don't agree that this is an expectation of the role and I'm going like Hey, look, I have a rubric that is like from the organization that this is what's expected. If they don't agree with that, it's like it's kind of sorry to say like that's what the expectations are. That's what I need to be able to go vouch for on your behalf when it comes to promotion. So, um anyway, on that first option of like contesting it or not, like I think if you have a good working relationship, I would absolutely entertain it.

I would approach it with an open mind, not of the the goal like I can't wait to show these guys a piece of my mind. And like, you know, obviously the way I'm even saying that is suggesting like you're just going to be confrontational, but like um I think expressing yourself, seeking to understand, um trying to get clarity on it, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Um I'll give you without talking about what part of my career in my entire like almost 15 years of professional experience I have had one time I'm trying to even think in an internship even I think I had uh like constru like when I say constructive I mean like feedback that was like kind of hard to hear once in an internship and it was really like um you know my my boss was like we think that you're doing great work but it seems like you're trying and they're right.

They're like it seems like you're trying to do the absolute minimum to get in and get out but like but you're very capable so like we're kind of confused by it. Um and that might have been one of the triggers early in my career. It was my last internship, but that might have been one of the triggers where I was like, "Wait a second." Like, like they're not wrong. I am trying to like uh dodge traffic on the way in, dodge traffic on the way out. And I felt like I could, you know, get away with it cuz I'm doing a good job. And I think the answer is I could, but what they're observing is like, we think that there's more in you. Like, we think you're more capable than that. So why does it seem like you're trying to do the bare minimum?

Um so that might have actually kind of like awoken something something in me but the more relevant scenario here and I won't talk about what part of my career um but there was a point in my career in the last 15 years where I had negative feedback in a situation that was exactly like this. Okay. And the unfortunate part was that I have never in my career, aside from that internship example, I'm not exaggerating. I'm not, you know, blowing smoke up anyone's ass here. I have never had anything but very positive feedback my entire career. Basically, like exceptional feedback. And I pride myself in that because I work my ass off. So, like that's my expectation for myself. If I get if I were to hear feedback that's like, "We think you're just doing okay." I would be very disappointed in myself because it's like I like I said, I pride myself in in busting ass.

So, I had feedback once in my career that was not given to me directly. I went from having exceptional feedback from a manager to my next manager telling me, "Hey, look, um, your previous manager was basically, you know, kind of grading you below expectations." And I was like, "Pardon?" Like, I had no idea. I went from being, like I said, exceptional to like getting uh, you know, secondhand feedback. It's like was grading you below. Now the the reality is because like I said, I try to do my absolute best and make sure that I'm not just doing average. My my new manager at the time had said like that's not what we've observed though, as in like my manager and and my manager's manager, it's like not what we've observed. So like the reality is like we are new management and leadership here. So like we can't ignore the feedback that was provided cuz and I agree with them.

It's unfair to just say like sorry like I know that you managed this person for x amount of time so but like too bad your your feedback means zero but they were like we have to factor it in but like we don't agree with what that based on what we're seeing. So, I think that they had a very um like I was upset by that obviously. Um not not because of how my my new manager at the time had um had handled it. I I think that like I try to put myself in their position like my manager my manager's manager the time I think I put myself into their position and I'm like that feels like what I would want to do like that feels like the right thing to me. So, not upset by their actions, but more like caught off guard by how could I have a manager that gives me like exceptional feedback just to later on give me like underperforming.

Was it like a spiteful thing? I don't know. Um, but once in my entire career. And so in that situation, just to kind of go back on my this person Oh my god. Sorry. You can't I don't have my 360 camera on. This person's switching lanes, but they're doing lane changes like my wife where they put their signal on and just go, not actually look for an opening. Oh, it's a not that it not that it's a good excuse, but it was a exceptionally old person, so I feel like they're probably maybe not fit for the road to be honest. Um, they look quite scenile. Um, and I don't know. Anyway, um, it's pretty scary to watch though on the highway. So, and yes, I did make that comment about my wife. She would I would say that to her face if she was right here cuz that's what she does.

Signal means I'm about to be where where the signal is pointing, not please let me in. So in that context though with my manager um because of how they approached it and they they gave me that feedback, I I didn't feel like I needed to act because that felt fair to me. Um, if that came earlier and it like and it wasn't handled that way, it was like, hey, like previous manager said bad feedback and we're just going to give you the bad feedback. I would be like, you know, I would want to have a conversation about that. Now, I also feel like the manager that I had at the time, uh, the manager that I have now, I feel like all of my managers, fortunately, I've been a I would be able to have conversations like that with, right?

I'm trying to think through in my past, like, is there a situation where I couldn't and in particular with the the new manager I had at the time for that situation, I feel like I very easily could have said like, "Hey, look, like, uh, I don't feel good about that feedback. like that was never delivered to me from that manager like I want to understand that further. My goal with that wouldn't be to be like let's go attack that other manager. It would be like let's get some clarity on this because that's never been shared with me before. Right? like clearly you're getting one side of the picture that I've never even heard of and there's literally historical proof um from other sort of performance reviews that would suggest the opposite. So like what's going on, right? I would want to have that conversation now. I don't think it's a good opportunity to ignore feedback.

Um, if you want career growth, I think if you're content with where you're at, like this person, I think they said they're senior staff. If they're just like, I'm senior staff and like it's a pretty good career, like then maybe. But I think if you're trying to grow in your career, um whether that's for getting uh performance rewards, whether that's for getting, you know, higher level, more opportunity, I I just don't encourage people to ignore feedback. I I get that if you don't agree with it, but that's why I'm saying if you don't agree with it, then I would have the conversation cuz I think once you get into ignoring, it's like it's growth stagnation. I feel like cuz now all of a sudden you have this feedback channel that is of no value to you because you ignore it. So it it feels like it's it feels like counter counter advice.

I don't I don't like the idea. Um it kind of sound maybe it sounds hypocritical because I'm trying to give the example of like previous managers feedback and I don't agree with it. I don't think that I would ignore it though. I think what I would be doing is trying to provide the evidence that that says otherwise, right? So, if the manager was like, "Hey, you know, Nick didn't do a good job of this. Uh, here's where it was lacking or whatever." I would try to be like, "Look, like here is evidence that supports otherwise." And and I will continue to demonstrate that, right? like I will continue to provide such evidence because I think that if someone's going to call out something that's like lacking number one, let me provide the evidence that exists. Number two, clearly they view it as a shortcoming in terms of the expectations.

So, let me continue to provide set evidence, right? It's like a lot of the stuff in performance reviews and stuff, it's not a one-time thing. It's not like do one design document review and therefore you know you check the box to go to the next level. It's like no if you're expected to be doing design reviews like you're doing them regularly as they come up right so let me give you the other examples as they come up of me doing it you know that kind of thing. So I don't I don't I don't think the second option proposed of just ignoring the feedback is good. I think it would be helpful to continue to provide evidence to to support that. That's my thought. Um but ultimately, yeah, like sucks to leave, right?

Um but I think that that's that is an option and uh going back to what I said, it's like if you're kind of content where you're at in your career and you're like, okay, like I can, you know, I hear the feedback, I can try, but like I don't really like believe in it kind of thing. It's not like a I don't know like willfully actively ignoring the feedback but kind of like acknowledging it and being like okay if something happens it happens. If you're just like okay being like that and and I say that sorry I realize the the tone of my voice is probably suggesting like that's terrible. It's not what I'm intending. Um if you're just content with where you're at that's fine. Like it's not for me to say otherwise right? It's it's literally your life, your career. If you're happy, you're happy.

That's fine. Um, but if you're not, then I think if you don't have that alignment with the expectations for your role or your next role, I I I don't know. I think it's time to move. Um, right. It's like those are the expectations set. And like I said at the beginning of this kind of uh this blabbering here is that if you don't if you're not align with your manager on that stuff, they're the one that ends up promoting you. So that's something that you're after. The career growth, the you know being able to move up in in levels, uh new role, new responsibilities, like your manager, like if you're not on the same page there, it's going to feel frustrating. And at some point you're either giving into the feedback, right? How do you continue to move in that direction? Or you're moving to a different environment.

And I don't think that either of those is wrong. I just think that it's going to be very situational. So, I think that you kind of have to ask yourself these questions, right? If you're in a similar boat. But uh you know from my my personal experience I would very much lean into option number one having a conversation about like hey I hear this feedback like I would like to understand you know maybe more specific examples here's examples that I I want to provide to you that maybe feel counter to that right so it's like just so you might have you know additional perspective if you don't believe that those are sufficient like that's you know we can have that conversation but here's here's just, you know, additional perspective to add in. Um, but if you fundamentally disagree on the expectations of you in the role, you could voice that, but odds are that's set for the organization, like we expect a level, you know, X to to do these things.

If you're a level X or you're trying to be a level X and you're like, I don't agree with that. I I don't know what to tell you. Like that's the expectation set by the organization. So if you fundamentally disagree with that stuff, you either invest energy into getting that changed, which might just like honestly I'm not saying to I always think people should stand up for things they believe in. I feel like that might be a ton of effort that may not be worth it, but maybe you feel passionately passionately about that where you're like, I don't think that people at level X should have that expectation. So be it. Like go get your voice heard. Don't drive out. You'll regret that. So I was about to pull out and get hit.

Um but yeah it might be might be something that once you hear those expectations not just like it's not just your manager's opinion but it's like this is the expectation of the role then you might say okay well now I understand that's how this organization perceives this stuff like maybe maybe it's how they do things here is not for me at a place like Microsoft Microsoft's big enough where like there's different organizations And they they're probably all very similar in terms of the level and role expectations, but they might have a little bit of variance where you're like, seems like these organizations focus on X less. So like I'm more aligned to that and maybe that's an option otherwise maybe it's a different company kind of thing. But always comes back to aligned expectations with your manager. Hope that was helpful. If you thought it was interesting or useful and you want to share it back to Reddit, that was on experienced devs.

The thread is called, "How do you deal with feedback that is just dot dot dot wrong?" Thanks for watching. I will see you next time. Take care.