The Invisible Barrier Every Experienced Developer Faces

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, we're going to the experience devs subreddit. This one is the senior developer ceiling. This is what it's titled. And so this developer is kind of talking about some of their experience over the last 15 to 20 years and how it kind of feels like uh there's this ceiling that you end up hitting when you're at a a level that starts to uh have expectations of you going beyond your your team to more of like an organizational or cross team uh type of impact to go to the next level. And so when they're talking through this experience they have um from their career, they're I don't know, they're they're describing something that I think is probably like a shared experience and it's it's to me it's kind of interesting because uh it's uh parts of it are certainly relatable and I I think that

for you know for many of you if you're not 15 to 20 years into your career um this it kind of to me it kind of feels like a bit of a a lens for like what's ahead and he has an interesting kind of a reflection looking back. So he is describing you know the earlier years of his career um where it's uh like the promotions and stuff come a little bit easier when you're a lot more junior which I think makes sense. Um talking about the time period I guess like you know just kind of highlighting that like obviously things are a little bit different than they are right now in terms of uh you know the tech landscape and the other thing that he's pointing out is that and I think this is the really shared experience is this this pressure right like it's always the next level like what's next how do I how do I be better like Um, I've talked about this in some recent videos.

This this thing that I I don't want to say software engineering is the only sort of career path where this happens, but it certainly happens a ton in software engineering where there's a lot of pressure to always be like how do you get to the next level, right? How do how are you focusing on those things? Like how are you prioritizing that? What's next? What's next? What's next? And so in his post he's kind of talking about all these things and uh the sort of the insight or that he's sharing is that when he's reflecting on this just saying like I really wish I realized sooner that I'm I'm okay with getting to where I got to and says that maybe in his career the remaining part of his career he's like maybe I have one more promotion and like that's okay and I'm actually not interested in trying to rush that.

So almost hitting this part of his career and I'm I'm going to say not just career from the perspective of like this is literally what I'm doing for work, but I want to say like stage in life because I think that's I think that's a big part of this too. reaching this point where you know what like I I've been pretty successful like things are pretty good and maybe maybe there isn't this need or desire to go pushing myself even more and more and more beyond what I'm doing right now. Uh just to be able to say, "Look, I got it to the next level. Look, I get a little bit more pay. look, I get a little bit more um you know uh depending on the person, whatever, like the the prestige that comes with the next level.

So maybe it's just okay to to not have to to put myself through that and then goes on to ask others like, "Hey, what are your thoughts on this?" So, I think this is pretty cool because like I said, it's uh I I think that a lot of these experiences that he's talking about and obviously I'm not doing a good job like going into the specifics of his post. Um so, I'd recommend if you get a chance like maybe go search for it in the experience devs. It's uh the senior developer ceiling is the name of the post. And uh yeah, I just think that there's a lot of shared experience and then this this realization that maybe we don't all share this part and maybe it's uh because of different stages in life or maybe we never will, but uh this reflection of maybe I've reached a point and and that's okay.

So I was curious because I'm like, hey, if I go scroll through these comments, I wonder what I'm going to see here, right? And there are a lot of people agreeing with this. Um there the discussion is pretty interesting because you get a lot of people sharing also like this uh the same perspective and then some people trying to clarify um some things about these types of roles where you're like going beyond senior um and and what does that mean? Uh well, it's going to look different everywhere obviously, but in general uh this idea of the impact that you're expected to have is beyond your your current team and more like cross team or organizational. So it's like the the staff or principal kind of uh expectations.

And so yeah, the the common thing that we end up seeing in these comments is that there's a lot of people saying, "Hey, like uh you know, I just the way they frame it or say it is kind of funny, I guess, but uh it's just cuz the language seems like a little strong, but they're like, "Yeah, like I got to to senior and then I just coast now." And I I don't uh when I read that, what comes into my mind is kind of like people get to this level and then it's like they just start doing crappy work. But I don't think that's actually what they're suggesting. I think uh that's just what I envision. I think I think what people are suggesting in that thread is that they had this lived experience that's similar where there's this pressure keep trying to get to the next level.

They get to senior and then they start to realize that in order for them to go beyond that they're feeling like the work life balance just isn't actually worth it. They're going what is expected of me in the next level is actually something where I'm starting to compromise like uh what I feel like is a good work life balance like my um I would even just say like work balance like uh even if you're okay to um I don't know like balance your your work time and your outside of work time I still can imagine for some people that the amount of like politicking you kind of have to do when you're you're trying to work across teams or do like organizational type things is like that type of work just may not be interesting at all. No desire to do it. It's taxing. It's uh and I I don't know.

I think that's that's totally fine for people to not want to do that. So you have a lot of people describing this where they're like I got to senior and then once I was there um the coasting part I think is them saying I'm not trying to push hard to go to staff principal whatever else comes beyond senior because it it just feels like this is a a good balance between like what I was doing and what's expected of me next a lot of comments on that. Now, on the work life balance part where you have some of the other like I I feel like most comments in this thread are aligning with this and uh sorry, cars beeping at me saying the radar sensors are dirty because it's uh it's snowing and that's pretty wild. I feel like I haven't seen snow all year and it's uh middle of March.

Back home in Canada, I'd be seeing all kinds of snow up until this point and snow again for another 2 months, but not not so common here in Washington. Uh yeah, so the other sort of comments we're getting in this thread are not not necessarily disagreeing with this. Uh it's just some people offering uh some clarity around the senior to uh senior plus roles. So like the staff and principal. Some people say, "Hey, by the way, you know, especially if you're reading stuff in experienced devs, like uh don't always don't always take that as like the 100% truth and uh 100% uh I don't know descriptive of reality, right? So, some people saying that yeah, a lot of what you read on these subreddits will be people saying how um how awful they find like their their staff or principal level role. Uh how awful that work life balance is, these types of things.

But these some of these people jumping in to say, "Hey, like just so you know, it's not like that everywhere." And it's totally possible to find um yourself in these positions where that's not like like ending your work life balance entirely, which I thought I thought was good for people to call out because I always think that it's helpful to have these these different experiences, right, where people can share like, you know, I'm I also have uh uh this title or this type of experience, but it looks a different way. And I think that's really helpful when you can see uh different angles from it. So on this topic, I I think it's important for people to to think about or to to hear from more senior people in the industry that it's uh it's not like failing to not get to some of those other levels or to get to them.

uh sort of at this this rate or pace that you might be uh expecting or uh have planned in your mind and like it's okay. It's not it's not failing. It's not failing to not be getting promoted like every year kind of thing. Uh I I definitely feel that there is a uh I don't know not only an ever growing pressure on individuals to be getting to the next level but it's almost like uh the expectation that this time time frame is collapsing right so if I'm just making up numbers to illustrate what I'm saying and exaggerate it but if it if it was going to take 10 years to get to senior here. Uh now the expectation is like you got to that it should be happening in 5 years kind of thing.

And uh I'm not saying those are the right numbers or anything like that but it feels like that expectation as a whole is like is shrinking uh especially from people coming into the industry and what they have in their mind. So again, not that that's right or wrong. That's just that that's the what I I'm sort of uh realizing from talking with uh you know, with engineers I work with. So I've said this phrase in other videos and uh it's not like a phrase that I say a lot, so it might sound kind of weird. Um but I'm going to say the phrase terminal level. And the idea with a terminal level is that for a business almost like from a business continuity team growth kind of perspective uh there's this idea of a terminal level and it might not I don't know it might not be something that places have explicitly um said but it is uh probably minimally it's at least like a perceived thing.

Uh, but I think a lot of places from an HR perspective probably have this. And a terminal level is like I realize terminal sounds like pretty it's a pretty heavy word. Uh but a terminal level is essentially it's from a business perspective someone getting to and staying at that level is absolutely um considered like uh a viable business is content with someone getting to that level and staying there. And so at a lot of places terminal level is like in the senior band which means that at the earlier levels just for example if I exaggerate things I sometimes feel like that helps illustrate but if some like there's nothing wrong with a a junior engineer right obviously people start in their career they have to start somewhere um and so they will have less experience they will you know be able to deal with you know less ambiguity compared to someone perhaps with more experience.

These are all normal things. But if you were in a junior level for 5 years, for 10 years at the same level, like that would be considered uh risky for the business because they're at these levels they're investing into you as well for your growth. So at the more junior levels if there's no progression like there there actually is like this expectation or goal of the business to be able to get you uh over the years to a you know senior level and then go great like you know if you're if you're operating effectively at senior like that's that's great. The expectation of the business is not that everyone uh does go beyond senior when we talk about terminal levels. Okay. And I think that's also important to hear and understand because that that does imply that like it it's it's there's nothing wrong with uh with getting to a senior level um and then not wanting to uh to push past that because of pressure, because of work life balance, because of anything else.

So, I didn't have like a a specific, you know, uh, goal or thing that I was trying to um, convince you of, I guess, with this. I I think the message that I wanted to give is like I absolutely understand because, you know, I live it as well. Uh, I understand this this pressure of how do I get to the next level? How do I do it faster? How do I become more effective at it? How do I how do I just keep pushing through? Right? I understand that pressure comes from a lot of different places. Um, especially, you know, I'll say things like social media, comparing yourself to others. You see the the one guy or girl on the internet that became a staff engineer and in six months because they I don't know they they did something and got promoted and now they're a now they're going for VP.

Like all this like ridiculous stuff you see because you're seeing people's literal highlight reels of like the stuff that goes viral that you end up seeing on the internet is like outrageously exceptional, right? But these are the things we see and they be they seem more common to us because of that. So, um I get pressure from that. Um it could be like I'll share that I think from some of my my upbringing I have uh you know pressure to to do well and to try and be um you know to try and be exceptional, right? Like that is something that is probably ingrained in me from being a kid. uh sorry not from being a kid from when I was a kid. Uh maybe I am still a kid. So yeah, pressure comes from all these different places. Could be cultural, could be whatever, right?

So I understand that. Uh but I I think that it's super important to hear that uh there are people that are at those I don't know like later stages in their career going hey look like uh doesn't doesn't have to persist that way. And in fact, not only does it not have to, but like I am finding more happiness and peace of mind, not not trying to push myself uh to the extreme limits just to be able to say, "Look, I got the next one." So, I think that's the the kind of message I wanted to to share with folks is that it does look like that for a lot of people. Okay, we're getting to CrossFit. Um today is what's called an open workout. And so they're these pretty nasty challenge workouts and they have leaderboards and stuff. I'm I'm terrible enough where I don't uh I don't think about the leaderboard because I'm not I'm not anywhere near uh sort of a competitive level here.

I just try to make sure my heart doesn't explode when I'm going through this stuff. Um, so today's going to be pretty bad. Not excited for the next uh hour or so, but that's okay. It'll be interesting. And we made it. Okay, folks. Well, hope that's uh one to reflect on at least. Maybe my words aren't uh doing a great job of kind of going through that, but I I I'm hoping that people can kind of reflect on that for whether it's now, whether that's over the next year, uh periodically over your career. I think that's important to try and look for the that right balance for you. So, if you got thoughts or questions, leave them below in the comments. Otherwise, you can submit stuff to code.com and uh you'll be kept anonymous that way with the submission form. So, I will see you in the next video.

Take care.