Developers React To Overwhelmed Managers In Their Teams

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Hey folks, we're going to the experience dev subreddit today and this one is about managers. Um, and I guess the framing for this one was people dealing with managers that seem to be like from their observation and the observation of those around them spread too thin. And I thought this is kind of interesting because um there were there were actually two like major angles this was looked at in some of the discussion on the thread. And so in the original post the author's kind of talking about uh you know in meetings it's like manager will kind of drop in. It's like maybe it looks like they're not paying attention. They might drop a question and people are like, "Man, like we just been talking about that for the last 10 minutes." Like, uh, like basically it's just it's pretty apparent like they're not they're not engaged.

They're um not paying attention. They're not contributing a lot. And couple of, you know, different things around this. But again, I think the most interesting part was that when I was reading that post, I was kind of waiting for what I thought might be the typical response, which is just like, I don't know, oh, typical managers like not adding any value, whatever. Uh, you know, people basically just on on bad managers. Like, it's kind of just what I expected, especially given the framing of it. But what actually happened was that there was a a bit of a mix of this. And so you got a little bit of that, which is people just saying like, "Yeah, I run into this a lot." Um, and sort of categorizing a group of people that um seem to be like just trying to look busy, right?

like as long as I come across as someone who looks busy then I'm kind of like I don't know like checking the box for being a manager kind of thing and then the other side was a lot of and this is it was actually it seemed like more people saying this like almost being empathetic to it which was yep you know kind of seen this kind of thing um but here's how I've like basically worked with that manager to like to help and not not necessarily in a way when I'm saying empathetic I don't mean like they're like oh poor manager like don't worry uh more just like raising awareness with them like directly being like hey like I'm noticing this uh it's sort of in a private way to say um you pick your pick your words or whatever but you know notice that uh either you seem distracted or seemed like maybe it was kind of hard to to catch up on what was going on or whatever.

Uh and especially if it's been repeated where it's like, "Hey, notice when you show up for this recurring meeting or whatever that um just whatever your observation is about them being disengaged or having challenges." Uh so being direct with them in a in a private way. So it's not like let me belittle you in front of a group of people which I thought was just super helpful right not again not in a way that's like uh I don't know like coddling I guess but just being like hey like let me be direct with you. Um and then the other thing was some people taking various actions to be like cool like uh I can see this is happening and like what I can do is make sure that I have like a clear agenda for for the manager ahead of time right so when they

come into the meeting they're not spending time catching up on like what the heck is being discussed it's more like here here is the agenda and so now you know and I guess one of the other positive side effects of such a thing is that if you don't got be there that don't. So anyway, overall was really interested in seeing different angles of this discussion, especially having a side uh you know being represented that I thought would be very much under represented. But I thought this would be kind of interesting to talk through because I do think this is something that uh a lot of people probably observe u in different ways. Um, I think that a lot of people probably observe it, right? And if I had to wager a guess, I suspect this is something that becomes more and more common because just like with individual contributors feeling like, you know, over the past few years, uh, like the work is piling on and you're you're being stretched too thin.

I would say probably a common pattern for managers too, right? Like they're not not immune to it. Um, so I think I wanted to talk a little bit about that, what that looks like from maybe some different perspectives and then share even my own and how in certain situations I feel like I've been the manager that's stretched too thin. And while I try to do as good of a job as I can on that, like when people have uh interacted with me in ways that that probably lets me know, right? So I think if we talk about the first maybe group of people, the let me let me just look busy kind of manager. Um I think this is unfortunately a real thing. Uh just like I think that it is unfortunately a real thing for individual contributors and other roles uh for for product managers, right?

Um I think that this can happen. I think that it does happen. I like to believe that it's not people being malicious. I like to think that there's probably something a little bit more from the perspective of I don't know the organization how someone's aligned with their work, whatever. Like there's like there's a reason for it. It's not just like this someone's like, "Hey, I'm going to try to take advantage of of the situation." And um I again I don't think that's impossible either, but I I genuinely think that uh you know most people just aren't out to be malicious. So if you if you are encountering people where you're like, man, this person just trying to seem like they're busy. Um I think that's probably rooted in something maybe a little bit deeper. Um, I I'm not going to speculate at all the different reasons why, but that's my my guess.

That could be things like uh like imposttor syndrome and how people are dealing with that. It could be like it's not actually imposter syndrome. It's that someone is an impostor. Uh like they actually aren't capable from a skill set perspective or or some other reason, right? they're genuinely not capable and they've been put into a position and they're not being properly supported and they don't know how to ask for support and so what they do is try to just like, you know, appear like everything's okay, right? So, they're doing whatever they can to make sure like that doesn't seem like a problem. And I'm not saying that's a that's a good solution, by the way. I'm just saying I think that's perhaps something that's going on. not someone intending to like take advantage, more like a uh maybe a bit of a defense mechanism. It's kind of like a maybe not the exact same thing, but to draw a parallel if you've interacted with the pe with people in just conversations, forget work or anything.

I just mean like socializing where uh sometimes some people will seem like overly confident in a conversation or they they might even come across as like a little bit rude and it's because they're trying to like assert their position to I don't know like to overcompensate basically right if if I assert myself as some way and maybe that's like uh maybe a little condescending or rude or whatever. I'm kind of trying to put myself in a position where I'm I'm I'm the powerful one in the conversation and they're doing that because like they're of an insecurity or something else. Again, like for some people that do that, not necessarily a malicious thing. It's almost like a defense mechanism because of an insecurity. And I think that that can happen with people in their roles, too. Again, to be very clear, I don't I'm not saying that's the the right answer or a solution to uh a problem.

I'm just think that's a side effect of it. So with these kind of people like I think that's I think that can be really challenging because I mean well it's hard to know from the outside unless you're like their manager kind of thing. um it's hard to know from the outside like actually what's going on there and they're usually not actually contributing a lot and there's not a lot of value added in some cases relying on that person can be very challenging. So, um I want to come back to this this example when we look at the other side of this, but one of the things brought up in the post was like, you know, um a person doing this might say, "Cool, like I'll take that action and like they don't do anything for the next couple of weeks or whatever until someone brings it up again." And so, when you have someone who's uh like just trying to look busy, sure, yeah, they'll take on tasks, right?

Sure. give me the task. Like that's fine. I need need to look busy. Um and especially if it's something that they I don't know can like almost perpetually delay and it's not going to be the end of the world. Like sure, give them the tasks, right? They they end up looking busier and like do they actually have to get it done? Well, they could probably get away with being a week late on it or two weeks late on it or maybe people will forget. So, they take these things on. that the problem is that they're not accountable and that that that pattern doesn't really work or last. So, if they do it and they can kind of get by for a bit like not actually getting done, like at some point it kind of falls apart because shit's not getting done. So, they're not dependable uh and they don't take accountability.

Um, I'm trying to think of like in situations like this, like what would I recommend? Um, I mean, I think my recommendation is always going directly to the person that you're you're having challenges with, right? I think I would I would always recommend that because I think that if you can get to a point where you have a trusting working relationship with someone and there's trust and respect, which could be really challenging in a situation like this where you're like, man, this person does jack all like like how do you how do you build respect for someone that's like this? Um, but I think if you build trust and respect with people, it makes direct conversations with them significantly easier. Uh, and actually improves a working relationship after. Uh, but that's, you know, something called radical cander. Uh, I think if you haven't heard of radical cander, uh, there's a book about it.

I think it's a very interesting thing. Uh but it takes work and effort and it's of course not an easy thing to do or else a lot of people will be having direct conversations with each other and avoiding a lot of problems. Now if you're not in a position like that where you feel comfortable talking to the person um I think if it's especially if it's a a persistent consistent thing I might try to bring it up with their manager. Um, maybe my recommendation on that is like even if you're frustrated with the person is maybe try not to throw them under the bus necessarily. I like trying to frame things in a supportive way. So that might be if if you're not comfortable talking with them, if you raise it with their manager, it's not, "Hey, Billy sucks. Billy doesn't get anything done. Uh, Billy's late on these 10 things.

I can't get anything out of Billy." It's more like, hey, like, uh, been working with Billy on a few things. Uh, I'm not sure if there's progress being made, so I just wanted to check in to see maybe if Billy can get more support, right? How how do we help Billy? How do we help Billy? Because it's not how do I get Billy in It's like at the end of the day, it would be ideal in my opinion if like even people that weren't doing a great job, we could help do a great job. To me, that feels like an ideal outcome. Obviously, if someone's being a piece of and like there's no movement, there's no coaching, it hasn't been making progress, then obviously things have to change. But uh until then I I you know believe in supporting people and trying to help them grow and help them get better.

So that's how I would approach that. When it's a a manager that is in a position where you actually don't feel like they're just trying to look busy. It's just genuinely they are stretched too thin. Um which by the way this does happen. Uh I would say that I often find myself in this this bucket. Um, unfortunately, right, because like I was saying earlier, I think if uh you're an individual contributor and you feel like you're being stretched too thin, this is something that I certainly feel, right? Um, and you know, for for folks that aren't aware, like I've talked about this, but I I manage three sub teams, right? I manage three sub teams. Uh, I I have to go on call, my employees have to go on call. Um I have just to give you an example of when things don't align very well.

It could be something literally like this where um I have three sub teams to manage. I could be on call. I could have people uh traveling in like I just had people traveling in. Uh it could be planning season where I have to work across teams and across different roles to plan uh at the same time that I have a security incident at the same time that I have to do rewards conversations at the same time that I have to do uh what's called a connect or connect reviews or connect conversations. And like those are all part of my job and those are all things that you know like of course sometimes might be a little bit extra on top of my day-to-day work but they can all stack up at a particular point in time right I could have a season where it's just like all these things kind of lining up and I can absolutely be stretched too thin.

Absolutely. And the reality is like, you know, it's a a lot of those things ultimately are my responsibility and can I manage them when they're not all stacked up like yeah that's the goal when they happen to all align or you know subsets of those overlap there's only so much time right the answer could be what I used to do when I uh you know before micros Microsoft when I was working at a startup uh and I you know didn't have a wife and I wasn't in a relationship be like cool like I I don't do anything else except work so like just you know you got extra time in the day now right go do it but that's not sustainable I don't even though I did that kind of thing before I I don't think that's the answer I think that is a that's

a crutch Um, so in situations like this though, uh, I I really, you know, I did appreciate reading kind of what people were saying in this Reddit thread where they're saying, "Cool." Like, let if I can see that someone's not just trying to like, I don't know, coast. Like, they're actually trying. It's just that they're spread too thin. Having a genuine conversation with them about that to be like, "Hey, I noticed this. Like, what's up?" Like if there's even small things that could help, I think that's super like super appreciated. It doesn't mean that like, you know, that necessarily is a responsibility on you. I've had I'm getting close to CrossFit, so in my head I'm like, try to get through as many things as you can. Um, so rapid fire through this last part. I'm sorry.

Um, but you know, I've had employees on my team uh where they're like, "Hey, I see that you're doing these types of things and like actually that might be something that I want to step up and try doing." Right? I see it's just one more thing that's on your plate to do. I think that's actually something I could do. I think I want to learn about that. Can I do it? Right? So, I've had um I don't know like especially over the last few months, I've had some employees doing that, which is super cool, right? in other conversations where I was talking about trying to uh act as a shield to the team to prevent randomization which I do strongly believe in. Not to shield them because I don't trust them or shield them because I don't think they're uh capable to shield them so they can focus on the priorities that we've discussed.

Um I've had people kind of step up and say, "Hey, cool. Like, thank you for doing that. Um, actually, one of the things that you're doing, I actually would like to try doing that. Like, is there an opportunity for me? Um, which I think is great. I think it's a good growth opportunity. I think that one's maybe a little bit unique because it's within the team. If you're seeing this sort of maybe across teams, I have um you know, I have someone that I work uh very closely with and uh they're not a direct report. And what's really cool is that when I talk about radical cander, uh I actually think my I wouldn't say I had like a bad working relationship with them before by any means, but just sort of normal. And I feel like that working relationship has grown significantly. I think there's a lot of trust and respect both ways, which is awesome.

And um I've definitely had this person on I don't know like I don't know how for how long I'm saying this in a positive way. I don't know how long this kind of working relationship has happened where uh they seem very much in tune with like um when I'm trying to like hide if I'm being overloaded. I guess they seem to pick up on it. Um, even if they're not, I'm just kind of, you know, being very transparent about this. Even if they're not taking on extra things like, "Oh, don't worry. Like, I got that for you or whatever, which I don't expect people to do." Um, something they do is they'll reach out on the side and they're like, "Hey, just checking in. Everything good?" Um, like just to just checking in with people is is also uh a really I don't know. It's it's very grounding.

It's very much like when I get that kind of thing coming in, it's like a good moment for me to pause and be like, is everything good? Like, do I need to ask for more help? Maybe not from this person, but in general. Um because when when there's so much going on and everything's go go go, it's almost like how do you even stop to to recognize like I actually do need help. I need to get more support. Whether that's from my direct reports, whether that's me going to my manager or my skip level manager to say, you know, need some help here. Uh whether that's going to a peer manager or a partner team I'm working with to say, hey, can we load balance this better? Sometimes just having someone check in with you and it's literally as simple as like a message to be like, hey, like you know, from their observation like lot going on.

Cool. Just checking in. Everything good. those types of messages when I get them, I know that for at least for this person, it's a mix between if there is a thing that I could help with, just let me know. But also when they do that, I know that they're checking in for more than just that. Um, they're kind of just like acknowledging me as a person to be like, "Hey, like I I think I can tell that you're a little bit overloaded. Like, are you good?" And um I just wanted to share with you that I think that even something that seems very simple like that uh goes a long way. And like for me, like I was saying, that's often a a reminder where when I see that I'm like, "Okay, maybe I didn't even realize how um like how spread thin I am

at that moment and that it's an opportunity to pause and go, okay, like what's got to change uh like tactically right now so I can catch up and then maybe that'll buy me some time to think more strategically, longer term, like How do I how do I prevent this kind of situation from happening and kind of catching up with me like that? So, um anyway, I think I should have done this on a drive to work uh for a longer talk, but I I I just thought it was really cool that people were sharing both sides of like is someone just looking busy or are they stretched too thin and how do you navigate that? So, thanks for watching. See you in the next one.