College Software Developer - Internship, Apply to Jobs, or Freelance?

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Hey folks, I'm just headed to the office here. It's Wednesday. My music's about to probably blast. Um, been on call this week in the mornings, but that starts at 6:00 a.m., which sucks, but that's not the worst part. The worst part is that every day this week I've had meetings that go until 6. So, so far I've worked three 12-hour days. um means I can't go to the gym. I can't can't do anything which uh is really pissing me off to be honest. Um not putting me good in a good headsp space. But we got a good question today. Um and I'm you know really thankful someone wrote this in the comments. This is like this is exactly why I like doing this because I think that it's well I hope that it's helpful. I shouldn't say I think that it's helpful. I hope that it is.

Um, that's my goal. So, um, this individual, I'm not reading it out because I'm driving a motor vehicle, but to the best of my knowledge, this individual, uh, they are in their second year of college. They are, uh, I can't remember what country they said they are from, but it's not, um, my understanding is it's not in North America. And, um, so they're saying they're in college in their second year. they are doing sort of like some freelancing work and they're making some money. They said it's not great, but they also said like but like you know cost of living and stuff is is lower and like so not so bad, right? But like it's not I I'm assuming it's not like uh long-term sustainable, right? So they're kind of like, okay, if I understand the question correctly, it's really about going through college, doing some work.

Do I like how do I try and maximize this um to go beyond? Right. So, they're saying to get junior roles is kind of tricky because if they they're trying to apply to to companies I guess like I'm assuming like in the United States sort of thing. Sorry, one sec. Just want to pay attention to this intersection. Um, and they're saying like, "Hey, if I go to apply to these places, like maybe," and maybe that's not even, uh, you know, in the United States, but just companies in general, uh, you know, they're not going to want junior devs that are still in school. Um, they're, you know, internships aren't really seemingly not really an opportunity. I kind of want to touch on that, though. Um, but like, you know, do they do boot camp? Do they just continue on their path, keep learning, building stuff, and doing more freelancing?

like what's the what's the move here, right? And uh so I wanted to talk through this um and you know like in all of my videos. I don't think I say it in every video, but I hope that it comes across this way. Like my my goal here is not like here's my professional advice, follow this and you'll be a millionaire. Cuz uh I I don't think things work like that. And uh I don't want to pretend like I have all the answers, but I think just some some perspective, right? That's all. So, um I think there's a couple of different angles on this and I wanted to start by saying first of all, hell yeah to like building stuff and and doing some freelancing work, right? Um I think that's super awesome. I've talked to a couple of people about this and like I always I like to remind people, right?

Like I've been programming for a long time, couple decades now. Like I guess it's it's definitely over half my life at this point. I've been coding. Um, I don't think that people realize that to to do work like on the side or like I'm calling it on the side, but to do work outside of having an employer and like getting um, you know, getting paid to to build software um, is not like a trivial thing. It's like that's a whole set of skills. And so I just wanted to like say hats off to this person. And if you're like, "Hey, yeah, I get, you know, I do some work on the side or I do freelancing and whatever else," like hell yeah to you, too. Cuz I think that's super awesome. Um, it's a set of skills that I still really need to improve, right? I don't like to say to myself, "Oh, you're bad at this." I am not skilled at that yet.

I would like to be better at that. But I think that that's such an awesome thing that you're able to do that. So you might be like scoffing at the amount and you're like, well, it's not a lot of money or like I need to be making more or whatever, but like you're you're doing it, which is great. And like I don't know if people realize like how significant that is. It's kind of like um just to give you an example, it's slightly different, but there's a similarity here. Like as a content creator, when I made my first dollar on the internet, I can't I think I I think I sold a um like an ebook. I think that's what my first dollar was. Or maybe it was like uh like ad revenue. I guess you know what, like technically ad revenue, but like the payout.

Um, when I started my blog in 2013, I didn't make enough from ad revenue to get paid out like over a decade later. So, yeah, there there's my first dollar over 10 years. But when you earn your first dollar from something where you're like, I did this and it's not because an employer hired me, it's a super cool feeling. So again, I just wanted to say like huge congrats to someone for doing this and I kind of want to focus on on that for for part of this conversation because I think it depends on the individual but like we'll come back to that. I think the other thing I I wanted to touch on before you know going that direction too hard is like internships, right? So, I think if there is an opportunity for internships, like I I can't recommend internships enough. I realize that it's not um it's not necessarily straightforward, but I would highly recommend you put in time and effort into researching where you can get internships.

The reason I say this is because um you know people will and it's not new. It's just I think it's uh probably it feels more prominent now. It maybe statistically is right like people are like oh well companies don't want junior developers like that's not it doesn't make sense for a company to like not have junior developers. Companies that are doing this are going to get screwed by the way just as a heads up because they already are getting screwed. But if you're feeling like, hey, it's really difficult or it's really competitive to get a job as a junior, like you're totally like it's totally fair. It's not impossible because it literally happens, but sure it's a lot of competition. It's challenging. But the argument around like, well, companies won't hire juniors. Not only do I not believe that, but like statistically that might be a trend.

Okay. But there are companies that literally have internship programs now. A lot of them will have them set up with like um you know different schools and things like that where I'm trying to think like I know even where I used to work before Microsoft I was a lot more involved in sort of like the recruiting process at this point but like we would have um you know we were in the city of water in in Ontario so there's a university of water where I went and they like that's like a a school that has a co-op program for tons of of uh their undergraduate degrees and so they put you through internships. So companies get registered on the portal like it's a it's like a a relationship where they form between the school and the companies cuz the companies are looking for students. It's freaking awesome.

And then we partnered up with uh one of the colleges there and then we were like well there's another university there. It's called Laurier. We're like why aren't we doing the same thing with their co-op program? And then we had an office in uh in Ottawa and we said like well there's you know the University of Ottawa like why the hell aren't we talking to their like their school and trying to get their students. So internship programs are amazing. Many companies that do them will have sort of partnerships with the schools to kind of form this pipeline where they can get you know a bit uh like I guess yeah pipeline for students coming through. But it doesn't mean that there is no other way to do it. Like just to give you another example, the interns that I've had at Microsoft over the past 5 years, I have no idea how the sort of pipeline is structured.

They're not all coming from one school. That's for damn sure. Right? So my point is that if you're feeling like it's, you know, no company is going to hire juniors or whatever. There is no excuse around the internship part uh in that regard because those are companies that are literally saying we want to bring on interns. They want that. They specifically want people that are very junior and in school. They are looking for it. Now, I'm not saying that to trivialize or minimize how much effort needs to go into that if you're at a school that doesn't have an internship program. The the truth is I don't know the details of having to do that because I have not gone through it. But what I do want to share is that it is possible to get internships when your school does not have a um sort of like official working relationship with a company.

It's totally possible. Now the one thing that this individual brought up that I think is totally fair is he said well you know if I if I am able to get an internship it's not going to be paid like I don't know based on the country they they work in it's not again not fair for me to say because I don't have that kind of lived experience but like the internships I did were paid for some of the the classmates I had uh you know they went to Silicon Valley they were making tons of money as interns. But I don't know for this individual. I would say like again this is something that everyone will have to figure out the right balance for. If if it's a matter of like you need the money right now, that's tricky. So this person will have to to balance that out because if they're like I can get internships, but the way that it works where I live is like they're not paid for.

Again, I don't know that. Not for me to say. If that's the case, like what they need to be able to do is figure out like sort of like resource allocation, right? They only have so much time, right? So, they need to do their school. I don't know what their family and sort of obligations look like that way. They obviously want to have some type of life as well outside of just work in school. Now, I will say maybe some things are seasonal. Maybe you have a period of time that's I don't know a year. I I don't know what the right time frame is where you're like I'm busting my ass and like that's kind of what I'm focused on right now because that's what you you need to or want to do for yourself. Not again not for me to make that decision. This is like a personal thing.

But um you need to figure out how you're balancing time, school, work, family, and your personal life with friends, that kind of stuff with uh if you're still doing um you know, making some money from from freelancing. It seems like that's an income stream. Sounds like you're not getting income from internships if you're able to get one. Okay. So, how do you balance that? Do you still need to be building personal projects if you have an internship? like just to be able to learn. I would say if you're able to get the internship, maybe that takes a back seat personally, right? I don't I don't know the right balance here for this individual, but if you're able to score an internship, you can put that down as work experience. So, that's really good for your resume. You're still doing freelancing work, which is also good for your resume.

It's like building side projects because you're building stuff outside of your sort of like professional career. um and you're learning stuff in all of those. So you might be able to put the side projects on the back burner in that case. Okay? So that's one angle, but you would have to figure out how to balance those things. But I I just want to strongly encourage people don't give up on the internship opportunities because I think that they are opportunities. I think that they're really important to explore. The other thing this person said was, "Okay, outside of internships, you know, if I'm applying to be a junior developer, like that's not going to happen." Um, they said, you know, one of their things was like, should I just keep doing it? And my opinion is yes, right? I would I think there's a lot of there's a lot of goodness that comes out of being in that in that cycle.

And I realize for some people like you're frustrated by it, and I don't blame you, but I think there's some goodness. And I just want to to touch on this, right? For someone who um I I you know, I was answering a question for someone recently that was laid off, right? And obviously that's a crappy situation. If you're laid off and you haven't been thinking about like, well, how do I update my resume? What's on there? How do I even apply for jobs? Or where do I apply to like how do I interview? Like do I got to start practicing lead coach? all of these things. When you're at least in this mode of like, okay, I I'm proactively applying to places, you should be thinking about how do you refine your resume? You should be thinking about how much time you're putting into practicing lead code, system design, behavioral interviews.

Like, it forces you to be in a um a state of like reflection and ideally continuous improvement. I'm not saying that it makes it not frustrating or that it's easy. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying one of the nice things about proactively being like, "Okay, I'm going to keep applying to jobs." is that hopefully it gets you thinking about refining these things versus someone who's like, "Oh I haven't had to think about this for a long time." Like to give you an example, if someone said, "Nick, you have to start applying to jobs cuz you got to work somewhere else." or I decided I woke up tomorrow and said I got to work somewhere else. I am very out of practice for all of those things. My resume needs to be updated. My interview skills are probably like I understand the flow of things but my interview skills cuz I don't practice it, they're in the toilet, right?

Like I need to put time into that stuff. So this might be a a way to get you to continuously be thinking about these things so you can keep refining them. So, I absolutely would keep applying to jobs, right? Gives you a good pulse on what's available, too. So, please keep that up. Um, so we talked about internships, we talked about jobs. Uh, and then I kind of want to go back to this freelancing thing, right? I think I've not talked to too many people about this, but I've definitely talked to some where they are like, you know, man, I'm just doing this freelancing stuff like to kind of like help pay some bills, but like I got to I got to get a job. I got to get, you know, got to get employed by whoever like, you know, I need to make that happen.

And what they end up realizing is that it's almost like accidental, but they get to a point where they're like, "Wait a second. Like I'm actually like starting to turn a little bit of work away for the freelancing and they start to go, "Holy shit." Like maybe maybe I actually don't need to be employed by someone. Wait a second. like could I, you know, if I wasn't putting as much time into doing that, could I be taking on more projects? Could I start being pickier about the the projects that I'm doing and the clients that I take on so that I can increase my dollar amount so that it's more worth my while? And then they actually end up transforming their approach from being like, how do I become employable to I'm my own boss and I I'm pickier about the clients I take on to make money.

And I think that that is such a fascinating thing to happen because like for me, I've said this on video, I would love to someday run a software company. I enjoy working at Microsoft. I'm not going to die working at Microsoft, though. It's just like that's not in the cards for me. I'm not going to die working at any big tech company. That's not my goal. I would feel disappointed at the end of my life if that's what I did. And not because I think that it's bad or I don't like what I'm doing or, you know, other people should not do that. Like I think it's it's we were just talking about a guy at work that um you know finished 30 years at Microsoft recently. I think that's so cool. It's just not for me though. That's all. I think it's an incredible feat and he's had an amazing career and like all of that's awesome.

It's just not for me. I would love to someday run a software company. And I say someday because I'm not like, "Oh tomorrow how do I like make it happen? Like how do I get out of here?" like it's just I know it's something that I want to do. So when I hear people are like, "Hey, I'm I'm freelancing. I'm getting clients. I'm building stuff for users that want me to build them things." I look at that and I go, "Hell yeah, that is so awesome that you can do that." So, as you're going through all of this, my again, you need to decide this for yourself, but I I think it's amazing if you can continue doing freelancing because you're learning to build real things, okay? It's not it's not fake. It's literally real. You are getting paid for it.

And I think that over time if you you know like when I talk to people about doing side projects for learning I'm like hey if you can get paid and the stuff you're doing is like helping you learn because it's like you know that's why I was saying earlier like on the side I'm saying on the side cuz it's not your like W2 employer. I don't know uh what the equivalent is in different countries. Sorry but like you know it's not the company you work for. It's your own thing. Then like if you can do both that's that's freaking awesome. And then maybe at some point you go okay well I don't need to do this stuff on the side. I enjoy my career more. So you don't do the stuff on the side. Or maybe the other way you're like this is so much better.

I'm glad I stuck with it. I have an option and I can do you know my own thing. Or you do a hybrid. I don't know. But, you know, I think if I could make, again, I can't recommend anything cuz this person has to actually make that decision. But I think if it were for me and I had the set of skills that this person's talking about or I were in this situation, I think what I would try to do is continue to ramp up any freelancing work that I can. Uh, I would I would stay in school and not drop out regardless of whatever else is happening. You know, if that means that I have to say money's tight and you can't pay to continue your education at that point in time, I would pause it, but I would finish it. That's for me personally.

Other people won't agree with that, and that's fine. So, ramping up the uh the freelancing, uh, making sure that you can continue your Let me in, buddy. uh making sure that you can continue your education even if it has to get paused. I would prioritize exploring your um your internship opportunities, right? Research the hell out of that. I don't I don't know in your country and the opportunities you have and all of that. It's not it's not for me to say because I don't know. And for other people that are listening and watching, like I could say one thing and it might be accurate for me, it might not be accurate for you, it might be somewhere in the middle for them. It's there's too much variability. So the advice is research it because those are people, those are companies that are literally looking for students.

So hell yeah, do that. And then on top of all of that, I would, you know, I would not give up on applying to places. And I said them roughly in that order for a reason. Um, right. I think that if you couldn't balance all of that, everything I just said, I would cut out the applying for jobs. Right now, you're still a student, right? So, I would rather you focus the time on finding internships as you're approaching the end of your school. You know, drop the internship and your your job search part ramps up. But what I'm trying to suggest is along the way I would absolutely not drop the freelancing stuff. Um I don't think I said side projects in that conversation and that's only because I'm thinking if you can if you have time for side projects can you replace that with freelancing?

Right? you you might need to massage that a little bit. If you're like, I'm trying to apply to these jobs where I don't have a skill set yet. I need time to build things so I can prove I have some of this skill set or I'm I'm interested in learning about it. Then you might need to like switch that up a little bit. But I think that would be my recommendation overall. Of course, you need to make those decisions for yourself and for anyone else listening. like I don't know the things that you value more or want to prioritize more, but that's how I would think through that. So, I hope that's helpful. Uh again, huge thanks for the individual for writing this in the comments. I really appreciate it. It's what makes this channel. So, thank you. And of course, if you're someone else and you have a question, leave them below in the comments.

If you have thoughts of the things I said, leave them below in the comments. And if you want a question answered anonymously, you can go to codecute.com. You can submit your question there. And check out my other YouTube channels. There's Dev Leader for programming and programming with AI tutorials. There's the Dev Leader podcast where I interview other software engineers and we talk about their career journeys. And then Dev Leader Path to Tech where I do resume reviews. So, thank you so much. Hope to see you in the next one. Take care.