Should You Consider Unpaid Internships as a Developer?

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, I am just leaving CrossFit. It's Monday morning. I'm going to go to YouTube for a question. So, my comments, um, I don't have it pulled up in front of me, but essentially the question is around my thoughts around unpaid internships. And, uh, I want to talk through this. I think it's a good question. I I suspect that this is going to be one of those videos I do that ends up getting a lot of uh thumbs down, negative reacts just because people don't like the the idea. So, I'm going to chat through it. Um, friendly reminder, if you're new to the channel, you can leave questions below in the comments and I'll answer them on the channel. That's what it's all about. And if you're not comfortable with public comments because you don't want to um I don't know give yourself away or like you have some details that you want to add, you can message dev leader on social media.

It's my main YouTube channel as well. You go check that out. But yeah, if you message me, I will keep you anonymous. Okay. So, I I feel like there's I mean there's a bunch of different perspectives on everything, but sort of two major perspectives I see on this one. Um, one I think is probably the more common one that I see on social media at least, which is like the idea of an unpaid internship uh feels like it's taking advantage of people, right? Like if you're going to get people to do work, like they should be paid. And uh I don't disagree with the concept of that, right? like um but I I think that my stance on this kind of thing is I'm I'm gonna take the other side which is like if you're making an exchange for something that you want or need then that can be a a fair deal for you.

Right? So, um before I like spend more time talking about that perspective, which is mine, I I just want to mention like I I want to acknowledge that if you're a big company, right, you're forprofit, you're you're making money and you're trying to get developers and not pay them. Like, that seems pretty crappy. Like, morally, I don't like the idea behind that. Um because to me that just feels like you're taking advantage of people. So I I wanted to get that part out of the way because like when I go to talk about the other side, I I don't want to give people the perspective that like I I don't see the sort of like some moral boundary or some consideration there. I do. Um but that's again for companies that can afford to do so. an argument you might raise like if you can't afford to hire someone, then getting them to work for free isn't something you should do either.

Um, but this is probably where I'll kind of cut over to my like my perspective. And it's not just me. I've seen other people kind of say this, but the stance I take is like in this situation, you're it's like two two groups making an exchange for something that they want, right? you have something to offer and you want something in exchange in general for you know paid for job opportunities. You are trading your time for money and a side effect of that is that you're getting experience. Okay? So you trade your time, they give you money and a side effect is you get experience. And I'm saying side effect on purpose here because when we go to look at this idea of unpaid internships, you want money, right? But like you're probably in this situation because you're finding it hard to to get jobs because you don't have the experience.

Like dude, you're crossing the road and jaywalking. Um, sorry I don't have my my Insta 360 on so you can't see what I'm talking about. But in these situations with unpaid for internships, what you're asking for is experience and what you're trading is time. So, I think that if you find a situation like this where that seems like a a deal to you, like you're like, I am willing to trade my time to get set experience, then I don't see anything that's fundamentally wrong with that. Just to give you another example, um, buddy, it's all these people like Literally some of the dumbest people I've ever seen in my entire 36 years of living happen to live in Washington. It's quite fascinating. Um, someone just pulled out to do a left turn and uh I think they assumed there was like call like a I'm not going to use the word cuz YouTube might ban it, but there's a turning there's sometimes a turning lane that's in the middle of the traffic.

except there wasn't there so they just pulled out and there's a median. So they were just blocking all of the lanes of traffic that I had to drive through. Um anyway, it's going to be a morning for sure. The main idea here is that you're making a trade for something. And uh the other example I wanted to give you is like you'll hear in like a lot of videos I make or if you're watching the resume review series on on my main channel, I always talk about side projects because I think side projects are an amazing way to learn, get experience building things. And side projects are you trading your time for some type of experience. An internship that's not paid for is you trading your time for some kind of experience. The I think the difference and you correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to hear from you in the comments, but I think people don't like this because it's not about the thing in isolation.

Like if I just say trade time for experience, people are like that's fine. But they get caught up on the fact that they're like a company should pay you. It's not fair if they're not paying you. And then like I get it, but at the same time like supply and demand, I guess. And then people don't like that because they say it's not fair. But the problem is that like we have a couple options, right? We can say nothing. We can complain about it but not actually take any action. And so if you're like it's not fair and that's that like okay it might not be fair to you but someone else who wants that experience and is willing to trade their time for it they're going to go do that and they're going to go get that experience and like that's that right? They got the thing that they were after and if that's something you wanted but you didn't want to do it for free I don't know like that's sucks.

But then like I hope that you're building side projects or finding some other way to get the experience, right? Like fundamentally I just see this as like supply and demand. And if you want something and you're willing to trade something for it, if you like that deal, then you're going to take that deal. And that's like that's it. But I think that people are mixing in other elements. I got to switch lanes here. This is I am baffled as to how this drive is going. It's raining, which happens uh basically uh 99 out of 100 days in Seattle through the year. But uh interestingly enough, if it rains, the ability to drive basically plummets. Crash ahead. That's probably why. Um, sorry, I'm like very tired from CrossFit, so my brain isn't like fully fully on. Um, I think people are getting caught up in like some of the pieces that we don't really have control over, right?

like and as a result they get stuck on it but then they make the argument about these other things that we're not really controlling. So what I mean by that is like just if I zoom out I've been talking about unpaid internships from the perspective of getting experience. Okay. Well, what do you need the experience for? Well, you need it to put on your resume so that you can get seen to have a potential for an interview. So if we zoom out and talk about this, the reason that people are doing this is because they're going, well, I'm not getting interviews and I am rationalizing that it's because I don't have the experience on my resume. Then people are pissed off because they're like, well, I shouldn't have to go put all this experience on my resume because it's an entry-level position, right? And I I agree.

It makes sense if you're an entry level like you know your first job. Yeah, of course. Like if you don't have experience, you're going to be able to gain that while you're on the job. Like it it becomes a like a chicken and the egg problem, right? You know, entry level must have 10 years of experience. It's the same thing when you're getting a credit card and it's like you can't get a credit card because you don't have a credit score. It's like, yeah, but someone's got to start you off. There has to be an entry point into the into the circle. So I get it like entry level you should not have to have x years of experience because it's your first job. But I go back to supply and demand. Okay. So, if you are a recruiter working for a company and you say we have an entry- level position and a thousand people apply and you have one spot, the the demand is very high.

The supply is very low. So, they can start to be as picky as they want. they basically have to be picky because they only have one spot and a thousand people applied. And then people again, people don't like this because they're saying, "Well, it's not fair." And it's like, I hear you, but what would what would you like to do about it? And like it it sounds like a facicious question but genuinely if there is far if there is and I don't have data to back this up but in a situation where there is far more demand for a position than there is supply for said position what would you what would you like the recruiters to do? Right? Because I I feel that when I read this stuff online, people are like it's almost like they act entitled to it. Like they should interview me.

And it's like they absolutely don't have to do that. Like they're part of a business. They only have so much time. They absolutely don't have to give you an interview. So, I'm I realize it sounds like I don't care about how people feel or something, but it's not the case. It's it's a genuine question. What would you like them to do? You can answer in the comments, right? I'm I'm happy to discuss this because right now it's a one-sided conversation. It's just some old bald dude in a car talking to a camera and a microphone. So, if you have a take on this and there's something actionable, I'd love to hear it. But when the demand is far outpacing the supply, the requirements, they can keep jacking up because they have to filter people out. Now, at some point, it's kind of counterproductive, right? Realistically, if you're building software engineering teams, you need different levels of experience.

What I mean is like I said that funny. What I mean what I mean is like if you had a team of five engineers, let's say, and there everyone was like senior to principal. You didn't have anyone that was junior or mid-level. Perhaps the next position if there was funding for it, you would go hire and you'd say, "Okay, we're not going to bring on another principal or senior engineer. We already have that." There's not a lot of continuity in our team in terms of covering different levels. So, you might go to bring on a junior mid-level and if you think about that job being posted, let's say it gets a thousand applicants. Demand is very high, supply is very low. there's only one at some point. It doesn't make sense just to say, well, who has the most experience in terms of number of years or something because let's say someone applied and they had 20 years of experience.

They're not going to be an entry-level developer. They might be a great developer and they might be great to bring into your organization, but from a teen perspective, that might not be the right move. you already have a lot of seniors and principles. You were already talking about trying to have continuity. So setting the bar that way in that instance may not make sense. Now you might say screw it. They're amazing and if we have more funding later we will because it might not be an opportunity you want to pass on. I got to speaking of passing I got to get past these cars. I got to get over. A side note, just cuz I'm trying to pass cars to get around. Um, I don't think my wife ever really understood why like I I like having like a a nicer like faster car and uh you know just it's a guy thing, whatever.

Like I know you like it, that's fine. Like but like she doesn't care. Not to say like she she likes the look of nicer cars, but she doesn't really care, right? We did a trip last year and we went to um Texas for the CrossFit games. We had a rental car and that rental car, I don't even know what brand or model, whatever it was. It's pretty it's pretty crappy. Not that I'm insulting anyone's cars, but it's pretty low-end car. And we got into the highway and she had to emerge into traffic and she put her foot down on the ground and the car didn't accelerate. And she's like, "What's wrong with it?" And I said, "This is what happens when you have lower-end cars that don't have any power." I said, "You know, I don't drive like an idiot.

I'm not like, oh, I have a fast car, so I always drive as fast as I possibly can." No, but when I need it, I can put my foot down and get to where I need to go. Um, so that was her first experience. I think even her her car when she was able to drive, I think her parents got her a Toyota that had a turbo in it. So, she was used to having something that if you put your foot down, the turbo would spool up and get at least a little bit more juice. Even though it's just a little Toyota. Sorry, why is it saying Toyota? I think it's a Honda. It's not good. Like I said, brain's not working. So, yeah, she had a little Honda with the turbo. Um, so I think she's always driven turbo cars and didn't even realize, but what we had was not a turbo car.

So, okay. So, kind of trying to paint the picture of the supply and demand part. And I think a lot of people, like I was saying, get kind of pissed off cuz they're saying it's not fair, but all these other circumstances. They're basically pushing you in the direction where you need to get some experience to be able to put on your resume. So, there are ways that you can go to get interviews without your resume and everything else, right? I I can tell you from firsthand experience, I've had interviews without having to go I I haven't even given my resume places and I've been able to get interviews. Not because I'm, you know, the most amazing person in the world or something or I'm super special, but just through networking, right? A lot of the time when it comes down to it, if you're going through the interview process, they'll want to have a resume for HR to have on file and stuff.

So, separate discussion, but in order to get in the door to have the interview, I have absolutely done this without having a resume that's been up to date or provided one. So, it's possible, but traditionally, if you're going and applying to jobs on job portals and stuff like that, submitting job applications, you're going to have a resume, you're going to have your work experience on there. And if one of your limiting factors is that you are new and don't have professional work experience, an unpaid internship might be something you want to consider that gives you that opportunity. You have to think about your financial situation as well, right? Because if you're going to take an unpaid internship and you can't afford to keep a roof over your head, like I mean, I don't think it's a good move.

But if you can afford it in your situation, right, if you're a student or your significant other is able to help cover or you're still living with your parents or whatever it happens to be that like you're not put into a a financial sit like financial crisis situation, an unpaid internship might be totally feasible. So I think you know without repeating myself more and more I I am of the opinion that an unpaid internship can be great. I agree that if a company is able to pay for employees then it's taking advantage of them if they're like trying to just you know get as many unpaid employees as they can. I do think there are small startups and stuff like that that are in a position where you know they don't have the cash to be able to do it. If you were looking for the experience that you could volunteer, you know, that might be a great opportunity where both sides get something valuable.

Um I actually did a a take of this recording before CrossFit, but I turned it off partway through. I mentioned that um it's not just like companies trying to like headhunt people to like to pay them nothing. Uh I have had lots of people probably just from social media uh that have reached out and they've said, "Hey, I see that you're building something like I'm building a product and service called Brand Ghost." And they'll message me and say, "Hey, I see you're working on this. Is there anything that I can do if I volunteer my time to help? Right? So, for everyone that's like, no, like volunteering and not getting paid is like that's not fair for companies to do that. The flip side is like there are people that are trying to get any experience they can. And some of those people are even messaging me for a side project that they want to go, you know, volunteer their time to go build some stuff.

So, it's just again, it's like a supply and demand thing. The demand is very high to be able to have the work experience written down. And that all stems back to well is the hiring system broken with how we're doing interviews and all this stuff like maybe I'm not I don't think it's a great process but I don't really have like an action plan that I'm going to go change the software engineering industry. So, a lot of the advice I'm giving is like, let me acknowledge that it's not things that I I love, but it's also kind of the reality, at least from my perspective. So, I feel like a lot of the time the best I can do is guide within what I can observe. So, anyway, if you have different thoughts on all of this, honestly, would love to hear from you in the comments.

I don't want to, you know, my goal with like the reason I'm doing this channel, my other YouTube channel, my goal is to help, right? There's over, at this point, there's over 250 videos on this channel of me just trying to give perspective and trying to help. So, I don't want that to be lost on people that I'm trying to say like you should, you know, work for free. Like, I'm not I'm just saying if you need the experience and that's a trade that you're willing to make for your own time, I don't see anything wrong with that, right? It's an you might view that as an opportunity and someone else might see that is being taken advantage of. I think if you just understand the trade that you're making and you're comfortable with that, I don't see anything wrong with it. But that's my take on that.

I appreciate the person that sent in this question. I hope you found that helpful and let me know in the comments how much you disagree with me. And otherwise catch youall later. Take care.