From the ExperiencedDevs subreddit, this developer wanted a perspective on what to do when speaking up doesn't feel worth it.
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Hey folks, we're going to the Experience Devs subreddit and this topic is about being able to speak up. And so this developer was writing about some challenges where they're kind of getting tired of speaking up because they're just always ignored. No one takes their ideas. Uh and at this point like they're saying it's not really feels like it's not worth it. And uh it's kind like this kind of thing is always hard to read. Uh not not because like the I think the person's bad or something. I mean it's it's hard to read when like when you think about someone who's just trying to do their job and they're trying to be helpful and then like when you read something like this you can tell they're just like they're just wrecked, right? They're like I like why am I bothering?
like it's so disengaging and disheartening for people like that that you know I don't I don't even know this person and I kind of feel like I feel bad for them right it's like that's not how I would want anyone to kind of go about their job or or their life right like uh in any career like never mind software engineering just like yeah kind of feeling just defeated right I I think that sucks. Um especially when it's only at the like the idea stage like I'm just trying to propose ideas to be helpful. Um so with a little bit more context they're talking about some situations where um you know people are discussing like what to implement how to implement it and the sort of core slash primary/ only example they were giving was around uh like kind of like telling people like hey
like you know like you don't you don't need to do that kind of like uh either people are overengineering or designing things that don't really need to need to be built maybe because they already exist or it's not necessary. But that's kind like like in terms of context they're not really offering a lot. So, I I was curious because I think this is an important topic because I like I said, like reading this kind of thing is it's hard because I I would wouldn't want anyone to feel like that. But, uh like kind of where where's the like how do we help if we don't have more context? Like what are we what are we talking through here? And so I was trying to go through some of the comments to to pull more out and like was still struggling to find much that was useful.
Um and then they gave they give one other example when they were responding to someone and they had said you know people are like one example is people are designing to to be able to support reading multiple file formats and they're not talking about like even proprietary things like you know CSV versus YAML versus JSON kind of thing. Um, and like and we only need CSV. So like basically what they're proposing is uh is wasteful and no one's listening to me. And so like with one example like this, I'm like, "Okay, uh I don't have I still don't have a ton to go by, but um but it it starts to make me wonder like I when I'm thinking about this person's scenario, I I'm hearing them say like this like they're kind of defeated, right? Like this keeps happening. They're giving up. So I'm like, okay, so I I'm guessing like statistically it's not like this person just always has bad ideas, right?
I want to assume that this person like others has, you know, maybe not every idea is the best idea in the world, but like you know, we should all listen to people's ideas and there's going to be some good ones in there and there's going to be some bad ones, but at least some good ones. But no, it's every single time, you know, people are ignoring me. Okay. And this happens a lot and it seems to happen with all all sorts of stuff around design or scoping is is kind of like what I'm picking up on. And so how like how do we start to pick this apart? Right? Because I think the only way that I can talk through this is I have to say, okay, like let's assume this. Let's assume that and then try to to walk through it cuz we just don't know.
So, um let's assume uh this person did say that they have a bunch of experience in like on the team, but like in terms of like uh the system or the product they built and then they responded to someone else saying they're not a tech lead. Okay. Um, but that like there's no other context. Is there a tech lead or what does that even look like for them? So, I'm trying to think through kind of like what's what's going on here? The first thing that comes to mind is that um it's not that this person has bad ideas, it's that they're not doing a a helpful job like selling those ideas or pitching them to people on the team. So, let's use the the multiple file format example. there's people on the team that are convinced that they should support multiple file formats. Okay, so that's coming from somewhere, right?
And whether or not that's right or not, we don't know. That's not for me to decide, but it's coming from somewhere. And I would say, okay, like is it is it a user requirement? Is it something where you know for some group of people maybe they're like users have not explicitly asked for this but like we know that based on data or like usage of other similar products and services like these are file formats that that people use and expect like has a product owner kind of chimed in on this and like and maybe they have right and maybe this person who's trying to say like No, maybe they weren't part of that conversation. Maybe it's the other way around, right?
Maybe all these people who are suggesting this are like, "Yes, we need all these file formats and this person who wrote the Reddit post is very much like, look, we like I have data to back this up or I worked with a, you know, product manager to figure out what's needed from from customers and like that's simply just not necessary." So, I wonder if how they're communicating this kind of stuff is is almost uh like their intention is to be helpful. Like, hey, cuz they're saying everyone's complaining they got too much stuff to do. They're in their head. They're going like, "Hey, I can I'm saving you time. You don't have to go do this." And I wonder if their communication ends up coming across as more like adversarial, like, "Hi, I'm Nick. I'm pitching this idea. We need more multiple file formats here. And someone says to me like, you don't need to do that.
That's a waste of time, right? Like maybe the way that those interactions are going is it feels like confrontational or like I'm just challenging your ideas or I'm just saying that like your idea is bad. And instead, you know, you can I I obviously like I don't know how they're actually communicating these things, but instead of being adversarial about it or shutting ideas down, like like extending that conversation to to get perspective from like both sides, right? So instead of uh shutting someone's idea down and just being like that's a waste of time and you might truly believe it is especially because it's not needed or something else. like asking people why like being genuinely curious I think is an interesting starting point if you find that you're uh I don't know if you in retrospect if you're like you know people people feel that
I'm like the idea shutter downer you could try being more curious and I mean it genuinely right so when people are like I want multiple file formats Maybe instead of just saying no, it's a waste of time, like engage with them and ask, right? Like, hey, cool. Like, why, you know, we have this primary file format. Why do you you know, where do you kind of get this idea that these other ones would be would be helpful or like what's what's your rationale? And I don't you can do this in a really bad way, which is like you've already made up your mind, right? you've already made up your mind that you think it's stupid or a waste of time. So, when you ask the question and people can sense that, usually doesn't go so well because the way that you end up saying it is more like, well, we already have this major file format.
Why would we need another one? That's not really being genuinely curious. That's basically making someone immediately try to defend their position. And I don't think that's the goal, right? Like my goal with this kind of stuff is not how do I make sure that this person always wins an argument or like makes other people feel like My goal with this is like if you have statistically some good ideas, then we should statistically make sure that those good ideas get air time and consideration. Does not mean that your ideas are always the best. But if you're not ever being heard, then we have an issue. So being genuinely curious allows you to understand what's going on from the other side. And when you can understand where people are coming from, you might actually learn something. Number one, right? You might have learned that they worked with the product owner and they figured out that actually there is a benefit to the multiple file formats.
Okay? So you learned that like that's information you didn't have. Now, if you find yourself in situations where there's information you didn't have and you're not at least willing to re-evaluate your position, I think that's a problem. Doesn't mean you have to overall change your mind for sure, but I think if you're not going to at least re-evaluate, you might come to the same conclusion. It's a problem because the goal isn't just to be right. The goal is that you're trying to deliver more value to your customers. Okay? So, you have this conversation. Maybe you maybe you don't, you know, change your perspective or maybe they don't have um a really good reason or whatever, but you can at least see their rationale for it. I think once you can understand where someone's coming from, right? they they might say, "Hey, like we're just anticipating that like we really want to make sure there's a lot of flexibility for our customers, right?
Like we just it's not really based on like data we've collected, but like it it just seems to make sense that we want to be able to do that." Okay, so now you you understand where they're coming from. In your mind, you're like, I don't think that that's useful. Do we actually have the right answer? Right? Like you might find yourself in situations like this where like there isn't like a right answer definitively and so you're trying to optimize for not wasting time. They're trying to optimize for something else because they perceive that having the flexibility is valuable. So now if you understand that there's two different goals from each side, the reality is on teams we want to make sure as much as possible like number one we're aligned with like with what our our team charter is but like our values, right? That's the other part.
So you're trying to optimize for time saving. They're trying to optimize for flexibility. Those aren't necessarily the same things. But can you reach a middle ground? Right. So cool. Okay. You you guys proposed five file formats, right? We have the main one and four others. Cool. Personally, I don't think that that's a great use of time because those are, you know, from my understanding, I think those are going to take x amount of time. And like that's extra time that we don't really think that we that we have to spend right now. and we're not even sure based on what you're saying that that's uh necessarily needed. So like is there a way that instead we could go um ship with the main file format but then we when we design this we actually have it so that you know we're not coupled to the
file format in the rest of the business logic right so we have like sort of a a data access layer on top of it there's an abstraction so that way when we switch from our file format to CSV or JSON we're not rewriting the app, you know, we can drop in another um you know, file format reader and and then at that point then we can continue to extend. Um and then they might say, well, okay, maybe that's interesting. Like yes, that builds some flexibility for the future, but like we really I don't know like JSON how I don't know if we can live without JSON as a second format. like, okay, maybe maybe that's the compromise, right? Like you got it down from five to the main format plus JSON and you're going to design for some extensibility built in. Then maybe in the future, maybe you never have another file format and maybe in the future you do.
And then you've kind of cut this balance between like having some you know uh maybe in this case the abstraction was a good one because it gave you a little bit of flexibility for more file formats right and the the challenging thing with this kind of conversation is like in from scenario to scenario even what I'm suggesting like with my contrived example of like putting a layer of abstraction in there that might absolutely be the wrong move in some situations. Right? Some people might say, "Look, like we just literally will never need another variant of this, and I'm hellbent on that." And here's the rationale as to why. And or putting a layer of abstraction like that in place is just going to be like even more work, even more mess, right? So, I'm not telling you like, oh, this is the technical solution for it.
I'm just trying to walk you through that if you are listening to what multiple sides are saying. And to do that, you have to be genuinely curious. You cannot you can't listen to both sides if you're just got your mind made up on and you're just trying to push your your outcome. So be genuinely curious. listen to what people are trying to like their rationale. So you can see what they're trying to optimize for. And then when you are talking about yours, you can maybe see that there's something in the middle or a variant. Maybe there's something that neither of you have thought of that uh kind of accomplishes both of the things that you're optimizing for. But the point is to not be right, which uh sounds kind of funny. The point is that the point is that you aren't trying to win conversations. But that's not even what this person was saying, right?
They're just saying they want to feel heard. And um I I'm suspecting that when they're pitching some of their ideas, it's probably adversarial or comes across that way. it might feel like uh other people's ideas are being challenged and maybe there isn't a a solution after. So it's just like don't do that and they're like well like hey buddy you might be missing something. We have to do something here and like you're kind of shutting down the idea without without the extension of like uh maybe not that but how about this right? It's just no don't do that. We don't have this context, so it's impossible to to actually know. Um, but I would say that if you're like a repeat offender of this or you're like, "People don't ever want to take my ideas." I don't It's I don't think it's cuz you got bad ideas.
You probably have a couple bad ideas. We all do. probably got some great ideas, but it's probably because of how you're communicating. That is a big police vehicle behind me. Yeah, I I'm just trying to think more about this like if there's other patterns here like the I think maybe to kind of wrap up this thought is like I I wouldn't want for anyone on a team to ever feel like they can't speak up, right? And when when you start feeling like no one listens to you, I understand that that starts to, you know, reinforce this idea that like it's not worth the the time and the effort, right? Like why why would I bother speaking up? No one listens to me anyway. It's a waste of my time. Now, um to me, that's like one of the scariest things that can kind of happen with people on a team.
I realize scary is maybe like a strong word, but um I think that that it just gets kind of dangerous, right? Because I want people on a team to be able to speak up. I like I need to hear their voice, their opinion on things because like I don't I don't dictate how my teams operate, right? Like that's that's not the most effective way for me to lead. And so I really need people to be able to speak up. I need to hear where the challenges are, all these types of things. And then I need to make sure that they feel empowered to be able to go do what's important. So when I hear people that are like, "It's not worth speaking up anymore," it's like, "Okay, well, I I urge you to not give up on that. I urge you to to find different different approaches.
Um, and I'm not saying it's always, you know, it's on you, it's your fault, you're the bad communicator kind of thing. I understand that you might be working with people that are more challenging or whatever other situation. But I think, you know, just trying to focus on what's in your control and see how you can adjust communication and that kind of thing is going to be the most impactful. So, Hope that's helpful. If you find yourself in a situation that's like this where you're like, "Hey, my ideas are constantly shut down." Uh please uh I I'd love to hear from you on code commute, like the website. So go to codemute.com. You can write in something there anonymously. Walk me through a scenario, right? walk me through that if you don't mind and I'd be happy to try like obviously it'll be anonymous but I can give you a video response and try to like see if I can help um explain things.
When it's very generic like this it's kind of challenging. So hope it was helpful in in some capacity but I will see you in the next video. Take care.