Money Isn't The Concern: New Employer or Become a Tech Founder?

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

What's up, folks? It is day two of the station. I'm going to be almost going to work, though. I'm going to go celebrate a colleague for lunch, which is awesome. So, a bunch of us are coming together for that. Um, so I'm on my way there. And we got a topic that was sent in. Um, this is an anonymous one that was sent in on Instagram. So, just a friendly reminder for folks. Um, if you are uh interested in having questions answered, you can leave them below in the comments. Of course, that's going to be public. Everyone can see comments. Otherwise, you can send a message to Dev Leader on social media. That's my main YouTube channel as well. I have like C programming tutorials. There's a podcast where I interview other software engineers. There's a live stream that I do every Monday at 7:00 p.m.

Pacific. Bunch of people from Code Commute. Come over to check that out, which is awesome because I try to engage as much as I can in the chat. So, it's great to talk with all of you. So, lots of opportunities to have your questions answered if you like this kind of thing. Of course, this is just my opinion, just my perspective. I try my best to give different opinions, but I'm only one person. So, if you're interested and you have different thoughts or perspectives, share them in the comments. There's lots of active commenters, which is great. Um, so yeah, let's jump into this. I'm going to get on the road here. I think we're all good to go. I'm all set. It's actually recording audio this time. Um, so this topic is really uh, and you know, kudos to this person. They wrote a whole bunch.

I'm not going to read it out or anything. The, um, they wrote a a lot of detail. So, there's a tremendous amount of context, which is super helpful for me to try and answer. But the gist of it is that they're um they're getting a little bit frustrated with where they're currently at and seems to be some repeat patterns with their employers, uh like current and previous. And so, some context, they're saying that at least from their perspective in terms of how they grew up and where they're at right now, they're a few years into industry. uh they they're saying that from like a financial perspective, they've been able to land some some high compensation roles early on. So, they actually feel like they're financially pretty well off, which is great to hear, right? That's a great spot to be in because I think most people because they're not there there's so much focus on compensation and like that's the only driving factor.

So, this person has um at least kind of experienced some of that and they're going, "Hey, I don't think that's everything for me." The challenge though is that the roles that they've applied to and the roles that they've worked in, there seems to be um a discrepancy, right? though in where they're currently at and I think where they said previously again I'm not going to share the details cuz it doesn't really matter but um you know they have something that they're interested in doing in the in the role that's been you know stated to them oh yeah like totally there's an opportunity for that and the kind of like the metaphorical dangling you know dangling the carrot so you go for that um so they feel like they've been kind of let on now couple that with them saying okay like I think it's time to start exploring.

Um so they are trying to look around their challenge and again it seems like they're getting interviews which is really good. So a lot of the time I feel like when I'm hearing from people it's like they they can't even get the the call back or anything. So I think a bunch of good stuff going on for this person at least. But it seems like when they're interviewing, the job description and what the hiring manager or recruiter are saying are not really aligned, which I think is interesting. Um, personally, like I have not like if you want my perspective on like how often this happens, I don't know because um, historically I I have not been on the uh, interviewing side um, you know, hundreds of times or anything like that. Uh, I've been on the interviewer side many, many more times than the other way around.

So, my perspective on that is going to be pretty biased because I'm like, I I feel like when I've been interviewing, I really better know what the job description is. Um, there's been times where I've been interviewing for roles on behalf of other managers, like I'm in the interview loop as an engineering manager. And when someone inevitably asks and I think it's a great question like hey tell me about a typical day in the life or like how you know daily work expectations how things kind of flow there have been times where I'm like actually like this is a brand new team that's forming like I don't have the details on that I'm not going to lie to the person but I'll say like um given that it's in this organization here's how some of the other interactions look but I have to be very transparent in a situation like that like this is new that isn't going to be well understood stood yet the team is just coming together.

So, um my point there is like I I've I feel like I've not been in a position where I'm like I have no idea um what the job description is or like I'm completely misrepresenting it, but there's definitely times where I don't have some details for sure. This uh inter I have the Insta 360 going, so we'll see what's up here. But this intersection on the way to work always has construction for like the past few months. This road that I'm about to turn onto is so torn up that like they they have to redo the whole thing. It's nuts. But anyway, let let me get through this uh this intersection. Cool. Okay. So, I think this person is just kind of looking for a little bit of advice on on the direction they're heading. And the other thing that they kind of closed out with was that um and again, this is a I think a great spot to be in.

They are young. They said that they feel like they have roughly like three ways of three ways. Wow. Three years of runway. You can see how I mixed up those words, right? Three years of runway. and they're like, "Maybe I should start my own business." And so that's a really interesting one. I don't know this person well enough or know their background or know sort of like their their aptitude for this kind of thing like but I think that that's something interesting to explore. So maybe let's let's talk about that first just cuz I started talking about it and then we'll kind of go back to the um the interviewing stuff. So I think a couple good ingredients there, right? like they are saying they're young, they don't really have um like the their finances aren't super tight, so they can do something like this, right?

So, for example, I have I have some investments, I have savings, but um could I stop working for a few years? I could and could still pay the mortgage and everything like things would be okay, but I would be too uncomfortable. And that's just my risk tolerance. I'm not living paycheck to paycheck. I'm, you know, in a situation where if I lost my job, at least I have other avenues, like maybe I could go make courses or something, whatever. If all of that just stopped, I have enough saved or invested that I could figure things out for a few years. But that's not how I want to operate. I've been doing that on purpose so that a later point in my life, it's not a matter of, oh, it's a safety net. It's it's a matter of like I can feel comfortable walking away from whatever type of active income streams.

So I don't want to erode that because that's the goal that I'm working towards. Now everyone's going to have different risk tolerances like different you know someone might say I have this much money saved up and I feel good for x amount of time. and someone else might have the same amount of money and say absolutely not that amount of time like here's what mine looks like it's going to be different so if this person feels comfortable with that amount very interesting um but I don't know their aptitude for um the business side of things okay so what I mean by that is it's one thing to be able to build software and build software well uh in terms of like architecting architecting systems uh delivering features you know, building things that are robust, good quality, like all of that kind of stuff, like the engineering focus, but there's a lot more than just like rock solid systems in terms of building a business.

And I say that as someone who has been building software for many years. I've worked in startups. I've worked in big tech. And even though on the side I am building something, I can tell you like based on my skill set, the marketing and the sales part is ridiculously hard. I feel wildly uncomfortable trying to approach people, trying to sell, you know, doing cold calls, stuff like that. Um, people will say, "Oh, you just all you have to do is make something good and people will show up." Like they won't if they don't know it exists, right? They will start showing up if there's good good word of mouth, but you need to have some traction. So point is there's a whole set of skills and I'm not saying that this person can't do it. They're not qualified. I just don't know. And if they feel like they have, you know, say 3 years of runway, um perhaps that is an interesting opportunity, right?

Where they can if they're acknowledging where their blind spots are, right? You don't have to come up with like the, you know, the next Facebook or the next trillion dollar idea. If you're able to listen to people and listen to their problems and have something that you start building either for a specific customer or a group of people that have the same problem, like I feel like you can do pretty well, right? It's just like you're starting your own sort of contracting in that case. And sorry, in some cases, in other in other cases, you could say, "I'm listening to a group of people. I'm going to build something and then go like pitch it to them." But you could at least approach it as like contracting, right? you know people that need um you know websites made so you're doing that and then you maybe start talking with businesses that need some more uh specific type of services built so you go build that for them.

I think there's opportunities there. Um now again the thing that I want to highlight here is this person is saying they're in a spot where financially they feel it's okay to take such a risk and that's cool. what they're doing is prioritizing. I mean, this whole discussion is that they're trying to prioritize how they want to grow in their career, how they want to enjoy what they're doing in their career and less about the, you know, specific dollar amount for income. Obviously, they're going to need to have some income at some point to, you know, to pay bills and to, you know, food and shelter, that kind of thing. But hey, you know what? if they're going to dedicate all of their time and they want to try go building something or or getting uh clients that they can go do um contract work for that might be a super cool opportunity for them.

They are young. Um I just want to acknowledge there's of course there's tons of risk with that, right? I don't think that based on how this person was writing to me, obviously I'm not sharing the messages or anything here, but based on how they were writing, it feels like they're well aware that there is risk associated with that path. But um I agree like it is a viable option. It just might be a ton of work depending on their comfort level and their skill level in some of those things that aren't just coding. So, what I might say is as we transition the topic over uh back to more like interviewing and stuff, if they're not going to go this route and do this kind of like as a full-time thing, I might say, you know what, there's no reason it has to be full-time. Why don't you just do it on the side as well?

As long as it's legal in terms of your work setup. Are you happy that you're passing? Okay. The kind of person who's trying to were on the on-ramp and they're trying to get onto the highway before the person in front of them. Like, good job. You're just making it more difficult for everyone else. Um, okay. So, back to the let's go the more like traditional route. Okay. So that's going to be interviewing for existing companies. The nice thing about this is that um I want like I feel like this is just me. It's lower risk or it's lower pressure. What I mean by that is that if you're going to go start your own company, there's a lot of uncertainty around that and there's a lot of pressure to get it right. It's everything's on you. People might thrive that way though. So I'm not saying it's good or bad.

and just saying that's the what that looks like. Um, but of course like when you're interviewing as this person's called out in their messages, they're like they are calling out some risk. Like it's good that they're asking these questions to the hiring managers, the recruiters because there is some misalignment. So, what I might do in this case, uh, to call out one thing in particular is that if they're noticing there's misalignment with what the recruiter is saying, hiring manager and the job description, I would find a polite way to bring that up in the interview. Okay? Not to be like, "Oh, you're lying. I caught you in a lie." But to to actually say, "Hey, by the way, like you know, job description was talking about these types of things, right? and what you're telling me like I asked you about a day in the life kind of thing or like expectations.

They had another really good question was like tell me how those have you have have changed over the past few years which I think is really cool because it tells you a bit of like a trajectory right it might not predict everything but it might tell you how things are shifting which is kind of cool. I really like that. But if they're telling you, you know, this is what it looks like, you might be able to say, "Well, hey, thanks, you know, thanks for the information. Um, just a note on the the job posting. It seems like what you're saying is this. What the job description is that? Um, I is there and you can word this however you want, but basically bring up like, hey, is there maybe something I might be misunderstanding either in the job description or maybe something about what you said because perhaps again when we talk about these types of things, we're only hearing one side, right?

This is the other probably the third like pillar on my channel that I'll sort of establish is that multiple sides to every story, right? So maybe the person who is the hiring manager or the recruiter, they might be thinking they're articulating something in some way and they're thinking that they're articulating the job description or whatever. Or maybe the person who wrote the job description doesn't know the details and the hiring manager is the right person to get these details from. But try to close the gap, right? Because I think the problem right now is there's frustration between like what's written and what's being said aren't the same. So like tell me more about that gap. And it doesn't have to be like a like I said, it's not like a confrontational type of thing. It's like, hey, well, I see a gap in here. So I'm just trying to seek to understand, right?

What is this gap all about? Maybe it's this individual's misunderstanding. Maybe it's just something how the job description was written. Or maybe the person communicating it didn't do a good job. And all three of those things are viable. All three of those things in my opinion don't necessarily rule something out. It's just like miscommunication is like the number one thing that causes friction. So, um I think I think their line of questioning is good to get a feel for what's going on. Again, with that trajectory question, really like it, but um you know, just an opportunity to close some gaps there. Um so, that's one thing I would say. Uh the other thing that I just want to call out that I really like is that this individual is looking for roles for things that they want to do. And one thing just to again without getting into too many details, they said they wanted to do some more embedded development.

So they are looking I believe they're looking for roles like that. At least they had some experience that came up where they're like that's what I want to be doing. So I think that it still makes sense that they are trying to pursue this if they're financially in a good spot, I would say a couple things. One is you should not feel rushed hopefully, right? You might be like, "Hey, this job is uh taking a toll on me or I don't feel like I'm growing," whatever it is. If you're like, if it's causing like mental health issues, maybe a different story. But if you're just like I'm kind of feel like I'm stagnating then like if you're financially in a good position in my opinion you can at least be careful with your job search right sometimes if people are in a really bad spot it might be like look doing anything else including taking time off completely that might be a better move for your your mental health.

Um, so like taking a more immediate action just to disconnect from whatever the toxic workplace type of scenario is. If your finances allow it, maybe that's the best thing. Or you're like, I have to I'm going to go try a different company because I had the opportunity. You know, I was interviewing, it came up. You're not totally convinced it's like the most amazing thing, but you're like, it's different and I need different right now. this person does not seem like they're in that type of situation, which I think is, like I said, a good spot to be in. So, that means, okay, if they're going to focus on this path, we already talked about potentially just clarifying with uh the interviewer and the recruiter about some mis misalignment in terms of how things are written in the job description, but like what else can they be doing, right?

how could they be trying to um I don't know get a more clear idea of what's going on uh or finding jobs that are better suited. That's kind of where I want to start heading with this conversation. Um I think like one of the big challenges is that you know uh when jobs are just posted like on job boards or like company websites and stuff. I think there's this really big opportunity for miscommunication or uh like not even it's not malicious or deceitful, but just like, you know, here's a here's a generic job description and we're going to search and replace the team name and like that goes up. And why does it go up? I don't know. It's just like more efficient because there's, you know, 500 job postings at some big company, you know? I'm not saying good excuse. I'm just saying there's an excuse.

So, I feel like especially if you can, you know, chime in if you feel like you've seen otherwise, but I feel like in some of the big companies, you get like the job description, like half of it's just like company mission and cool, that's great. And then the job description is like, you know, 95% generic and then 5% of it's like here's a few technologies and you're like, okay. And the team name. So cool. Like, yes, it's for the team, but like not super effective. I got to pass this person, but this other person's going too slow. Come on, someone. Someone go a different speed. So, how do we work around this? I think something that this person could lean into more and I don't know uh I might have missed it if they wrote in their in their message to me but uh networking might be a really big thing here.

What I mean by that is like I'm just going to take a random example. Okay, so say I know this person said they had some experience at larger companies, the pay was good. Um maybe that's not what they're looking for now, but let's let's take a larger company that's not quite a startup just for the sake of this conversation. Um, let's assume that they're looking at the job board and they say, "Oh, like there's a role in a team that sounds interesting. Seems like I'm just going to use the embedded example again. Seems like they might be doing some embedded work." Okay. Like piqus your curiosity. Cool. Okay. What does that mean though? So now you're maybe you go apply and you go down the normal path and then you run into this situation where you're getting this like weird discrepancy going on.

Instead, if you're trying to take advantage of networking, what you might be able to do is go on a platform like LinkedIn, maybe look for engineers or the hiring manager on LinkedIn, reach out to them directly, right? Not necessarily, hey, give me a referral, review my resume, but inquire about the job, right? Just to give you an example, I don't have open job positions, but if I did and they were post and I was sharing them, if people messaged me on LinkedIn and they said, "Hey, that sounds really interesting. I would love to learn more about what you guys do in terms of like what I would be focusing on. Can you share anything with me that's not like top secret or proprietary or whatever?" I would be happy to do that, right? If I am trying to source good candidates, if basically if if it's uh if people were coming to me and asking me this kind of thing, first thing is sure, happy to help.

Second thing, if I kept getting a ton of this, I might start going, hey, maybe the job description's not clear about that. Maybe we're not saying enough in the job description. Maybe that's a good opportunity to make that better. I don't know. I have never actually posted job descriptions at Microsoft that I've been able to define. So, I don't even know if I have that flexibility. But if I were if I had open positions, that's something that I would ask HR about and say, "Hey, do I have that ability to go make that more clear?" My point is that that type of conversation I would be very open to. Looks like I have to switch lanes. Oh, that was the exit. No. All this construction. I couldn't see on the highway. It's too zoomed in on the map. Oh, damn it. Well, okay. We'll go to the next one.

It's only like a minute delay. That's fine. So, yeah, I I would kind of lean into the networking part um as much as possible, especially if there seems to be friction around um what's posted in the job description and um and not cuz having just like open genuine conversations before could be great. I'm not saying it's trivial to go find the hiring manager or whatever. Um, I don't know. Like, I have a premium LinkedIn profile. I don't know what features I'm getting that maybe free ones don't have in terms of search abilities. So, I don't mean to to trivialize what that might look like. So, I apologize, but I think that might be an interesting opportunity. You can take the same type of approach though. Instead of starting with um you know the job description and or like the job posting and then going to find someone, you could start by connecting with people with hiring managers and stuff.

And I think like even I've seen like I connect with a bunch of people on LinkedIn. Um sometimes people at different companies, they're not hiring, but they're sharing their colleagues job descriptions that are hiring. So then I start to see even more job postings. Like cool. Like it's just part of the networking effect. So I think doing that kind of thing can be very helpful and it's a different avenue than just going like what's on the job board? How do I apply? How do I optimize my resume for that? That kind of thing. We getting back on the highway. Is that what's happening? H I have no idea where I'm going for this this thing. It's like 10 minutes away apparently. But you'll see me get flustered trying to find where I'm going. Is this truck driving backwards? Weird. like trying to push push my foot on the brake even harder because I'm like, am I rolling or is this enormous truck going backwards?

Yeah, I you know, I want to acknowledge this person's probably feeling like uh pretty frustrated because they're trying to go find something that's more aligned to their interests. Um, and I think the sort of the unfortunate reality is that, you know, we we can't if you're running into this experience where there's a discrepancy between the job description and what the hiring managers and stuff are saying. Um, we can't control other people, but I think that what you can control is like how you try to to navigate those conversations and explore the details a little bit more. Okay. So, we're not getting on the highway. We're just driving backwards in parallel to the highway. Okay. So, quick recap. Um, this person could potentially go do their own company, right? They're young. They have enough um financial runway for a few years, which is great. uh their motivation seems to be around focusing on what they want to be doing versus just pay which again I think that's a great spot to be in.

The other direction is they can continue to interview, continue to look for that job. Talked about some ideas around that. But the other thing that I would say is like um the hybrid approach, right? And I gave you two different directions there. The hybrid approach is like why don't you just do both at the same time as long as you're legally allowed to. And what I mean by that is like depending on your your contract for work, whatever your that looks like or laws in your country, I don't know. If you're not allowed to be doing stuff on the side, don't. I'm not encouraging you to go break laws or whatever, but every place is going to be different. Contracts are going to look different. Um, just a heads up on that. If you're able to, then I think why not, right? keep your keep your income, you know, do I'm not saying like um totally like neglect work or something like that.

But if you're in a spot at work where you're like, I don't feel like there's growth. I feel like I'm being misled here. Like, okay, I would say don't overinvest time into your current role because you're already acknowledging that's not for you. It's not the right spot for you. So, no no more extra effort there. I would continue to be applying for jobs and trying to seek out what you feel like is going to be a really good fit for you. But you can take your time with that. And then, so that's sorry, that might be like networking more effectively, that kind of thing. Then in parallel, like what I would recommend starting to do is why don't you start your own thing on the side? Why don't you start looking for potential customers that you can build software for? Kind of find your footing with that because if you're in this spot where like you don't need to like stop working, you don't need to overinvest into work like your current role.

I mean, but you can be doing some of the networking, doing that on the side and building stuff on the side. I think like for me that's a good hybrid. But that's my risk tolerance kind of shining through, right? That's that's what's going on there. Go, go, go. Come on. Um, and why? Because like I said, I do have runway. I don't want to erode that. Um, I I enjoy my job. even I'm trying to think if there's been times in my career where like I didn't anyway there's never been a time in my career where I'm like this is so bad I like I will do anything to immediately leave like I need to resign cuz that would be even better for my mental health so I've never had that so I would continue to work maybe I would say I need to stop overwork in a situation like that but then I can be you know brushing up on my interviewing.

I can be networking. I can be looking for the right job at a steady pace and I can be doing the things that I'm really interested in like building stuff on the side. All of that to me is a very derisked approach. It might be much slower which I would be okay with because the risk is way lower. Right? As soon as I don't have a steady source of income, that to me becomes a very high risk type of position. And I don't want to ever be in a position like that. Like even even when I like retire and I don't ever have to work, I want to be in a position where I have enough passive income from whatever streams that like basically it's replaced whatever other type of income I've been used to having. So, I'm very much about d-risking things, but I can't make decisions like that for for other people.

But that's my frame of reference. So, I would say the same thing to this individual instead of like, hey, Nick, what's your advice? Which path should I go do? How should I go do this best? I would say that's my framework is I look at how much risk I'm willing to tolerate. In my case, it's very little. In this individual's case, they're I'm assuming based on what they're saying, I think they're significantly younger than I am. Financially, based on where they're living, what they have saved, they have some runway. They probably do have a much better appetite for risk. I think that's great. Right? If I rewind um my life a few years, I can't even say that. No.

like um even like when I was working at a startup before you know met my wife um no I like I would have needed to work if if I would have waited a little longer and I never met my wife or anything like that those these things aren't coupled together by the way I'm just talking about uh like a financial situation like I said not related uh if I waited at the company when they IPOed and I had you know I sold stock or whatever I would have been in a position where I could um you know much more tolerant to how much risk I can take financially much more right but that's because I didn't have any accountability to anything else and then I would have had significantly more cash reserves to go do whatever I want then it would have been cool how do I prioritize what I want to do but that's not like that's not where I'm at that's not what happened and no like I I wanted to clarify.

I'm not like my my wife has nothing to do with that being the issue. I realize I can be taken so out of context. I only brought up my wife because now I have like I have a family to support, right? That's the the risk tolerance part, not the not the financial part. I feel like I feel like this is taking me to the office in a weird way and that's not where I need to go. No, it's not. Okay. I wasn't actually like looking where the destination was on the map. So anyway, I think that's probably what I have to say about that. Um I'm not totally sure if that was helpful. Um like I said, this person rode in a ton. I do really appreciate all that. Uh oh, buddy, you better run. Um so so like that's awesome. And if if other folks want to write in with their questions, like, hey, the more you write, the more context I have, I would encourage this person.

I'll message them on on Instagram as well. If if they don't feel like I kind of hit on what they were hoping to have covered, then I will uh I'll ask them, right? Like, hey, what what else more specifically, I'll do a followup. Like I, you know, this channel is for all of you folks, right? Like I said, if the questions aren't in the comments or in my my DMs, I go to Reddit. Um, I do this because I'm driving. I'm commuting, and I'm happy to try and help other people while I'm otherwise wast wasting time just moving between places. So, makes me feel good to be able to to do that. Um, you know, most of the comments are pretty positive, letting me know that it's helpful. So, I will keep doing that. But yeah, with that said, I got um I think I said at the beginning of this video, I'm day two in my week off from work, which is awesome.

I got uh I only got a couple YouTube videos filmed yesterday, like for my main channel. I'm going to try to get like two or three more today. Um maybe I'll be uh less aggressive. I have to do a podcast this evening. So, that will be one video and I'll try to do two two others that are like C programming tutorials. So, I'm going to try to get a bunch of content filmed this week. Been cranking away at brand ghost code. Um, which is awesome. I'm just doing a big refactor for some stuff and like yes refactoring code is fun but like not not at this scale cuz it's like stuff's not compiling and I'm like ah like come on or sorry at this point it's definitely compiling tests are passing but like I have so many uh incremental things I need to do and uh I kind of want to review it's like very much a pattern that I'm repeating in a lot of places.

So, it's kind of uh I don't know, monotonous, kind of boring, but I'm excited when it's done. It'll be very clean and it's going to enable us in our authentication to be able to help tell users when authentication's lost. Uh which right now, um we don't have notifications getting sent out to users. But all of the notifications go to our dev slack channel. So I see all of the stuff that our system would be notifying on. And uh one of the top issues is like people just losing off on platforms, right? Like one for example is like if you change your password on Facebook, right? your your authentication will get invalidated on our platform and the notification system is mostly done but I want to batch things more effectively right now it would tell you like many times and you would want to turn them

off so with this we'll at least be able to show in the user interface hey your off is gone you got to refresh so very excited about that but I'm at the place I'm going to stop recording see you next Take care.