Are Developers ONLY In It For The CA$H?

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, I'm just leaving the office. We're going to Reddit experienced devs for a topic. I think this will be kind of fun to talk about. Hopefully you guys leave some comments on this one uh for your thoughts, but this is titled what keeps you motivated. Um and they say they've been in standups for 15 years discussing the same issues over and over. It feels like everyone's kind of doing the same things. Industry is on repeat and shrinking. Uh then they say when I look at all these jobs I realize it's all the same crap but a different group of people. So what drives you each day? Right? So they say this was easy for me at the beginning uh now everything seems monotonous. And then they say the RSUs are what keep me going. So um the further top comment is just thinking about that deposit hitting the bank account is what keeps me going.

Top voted. Uh pretty funny. They uh they kind of ratioed the Oh, sorry. I got I'll have to respond to something. Um that's what happens when I'm sitting and I have my phone here and I get a work notification coming in. But let's hit the road. Um I'll give my thoughts on this and like I said, um be cool to hear from people if you don't mind leaving a comment like for you. What is it that keeps you motivated? Um, friendly reminder, this channel is driven by uh questions that you have. So, leave them below in the comments. And, uh, if you aren't comfortable, you know, you have a question, but you're not comfortable leaving a public comment, you can search for Dev Leader on social media. Be happy to, uh, try and answer your software engineering and, uh, career related questions. So, um, what keeps me motivated?

I think there's different things, right? like uh it would be like I'm not going to lie like obviously in software engineering like we have we have pretty good paying jobs so like that's a big part of it. I think that and I'm I'm being transparent, right? I don't I I don't kind of grew up being told like, "Oh, money is not everything." And it's not, but like money absolutely helps because it gives us other uh like flexibilities in life, right? Uh if if one of the if you're constantly thinking, "Oh, I don't have enough money for whatever," and it's like constantly on your mind. I feel like there's a lot of things in life that uh that can be improved with, you know, at least having decent income. So, for me, that's definitely a part of it, right? I feel very fortunate to be able to to work in the industry.

Um, so that's that's a part of it, but the other thing I want to focus on, I kind of mentioning it just cuz it's at the top of the comments and like I I feel like it would be I don't know like dishonest if I wasn't mentioning it, right? So yes, of course, being able to have uh decent income is is up there. I think for me there's a handful of different things that I get motivated by and some of these things are like throughout my career they've changed it a little bit right so for those of you that are new to the channel uh I'm a engineering manager at Microsoft I've been at Microsoft for just under five years but I've been an engineering manager for just under 13 years now and that's most of my career has been an engineering manager and the first o just over the first half of that I was also like writing code in my role in managing teams.

So I've worked in a startup, I've worked in big tech and like the things that I get exposure to and the things that get me interested are are different. So the I think in startup days for me what was super motivating like I really liked the idea obviously the work was very impactful. We were building digital forensics products. at that particular company that was super motivating. Um I feel like I feel like this is pretty rare unfortunately that people feel like the place they're working they're like hell yeah like we do we do like really impactful work like I am like proud of it like happy to be part of this. I I wish more people had opportunities like that, but I I also realize that for some people, they're like, I don't not like it and I get a paycheck and the work's challenging, so like that's cool.

But I I feel fortunate that I had that opportunity to to be part of something like that where I was like I know that when I'm pushing features up or helping build things that like basically investigators, law enforcement, they're going to be able to help like uh piece things together and a lot of the time help save kids. So like that was awesome. Um so that was super motivating. And then these next two points I want to make are they're related. Um, I liked kind of this like underdog feeling and I I really had that experience in one of the teams in particular that I managed. But the other thing to mention is just that like we were a startup in a space that had uh basically two companies that effectively had a monopoly over the whole the whole space.

So we were absolutely the underdogs and um I guess like sort of at my team level when we were working in a particular product space and at a company level it felt really cool to be like we're the underdogs. We're going to start we're going to start from nothing and we're going to build this and it's going to be awesome. Like we're going to do it. So super motivating to have that kind of environment to work in. I think for some people maybe that's not right because that could be stressful. You might be like, "Dude, I don't want that. I just want to be able to like work on challenging problems, write code, be creative that way. I don't want to have to worry about like, you know, pushing super hard because we have to try and uh take down competitors or like we have like we're climbing the ladder kind of thing." Like that might just be too much.

that's fine. But that was super cool for me. Um I found that when I'm in situations like that that when they come up I'm like this is really exciting because I think for some people it's this feeling of like you can't tell me that I can't do it. Right? If someone's like oh like you'll never aspire to be whatever or you know you're not good at something and you're like I'll show you. That kind of feeling is um is what I get from that. I think it's awesome. The uh the other thing, this is going to sound cheesy, so bear with me. But um I I have found that when I get to work in teams, especially in an environment like that, I I don't know like maybe this comes up more naturally in that kind of environment, but uh like-minded individuals that are also really passionate about something like that because when I'm in that kind of situation and I'm like, I really want to work on this.

I want to focus a ton of time and energy on it. What's not motivating is being around people that don't want to do that. And I'm not trying to say that you're bad or you're wrong if you don't want to like, you know, work your face off, like that kind of thing. Nope, I'm not. That's totally fine. I'm just saying when I'm when I'm in that kind of setting, like that's what I want to do. And when I have other people that are also like that, it's like it's a super I don't know. It's like a powerful feeling to be like I have so much support just from the way that people are around me. So, um, you know, the early days of the startup that I was at, that's what it felt like, right? Underdog effect plus had people around me that were like, you know, we're going to fight to make this awesome.

Loved it, right? Uh, one of the small teams I had at that company, same type of thing. Like, we we were starting a product from from the ground up and had a, you know, one one company that had a really big monopoly on a similar product. So, um, the team I had was kickass, right? They were like, doesn't matter how, you know, how big the mountain is, like we're getting through this thing and we could feed off of that. So, that for me was really motivating. But that's I'd say like startup days, right? Um, being able to be part of a company that was growing like that was really motivating for me. Coming back to like the the money thing, right? For transparency. Um when I was working there in my mind, like I know it's not my company, right? It's not my startup to again to to clarify that not my company.

Um but at the same time, like I and I've said this in other videos, I feel like I had a lot of autonomy and I was really empowered to do like to do awesome work there. So it I know it's not my company, but it kind of felt like I have such autonomy where I'm like it feels like it, right? Um and when I say that, I'm not trying to make that sound confusing like I actually thought it was my company cuz definitely not. But um it it just felt empowering. That's probably the best way to say it. So for me that meant like okay I had a lot of classmates and stuff that they went to they went to into big tech like right after university and like so cool that's awesome for them they're probably making loads of cash and for me I'm like I'm not getting paid as much.

Um which is fine. Got to let this bus in. Get in here. Um that's fine. But in my head, I'm like, I'm part of this this company that's like it's going to be gamechanging and okay, like we'll we'll wait and see cuz like I really believe in this and it's doing really well and it felt like if I keep doing really well, it's going to keep doing really well, right? So all these all these really good ingredients to like just want to keep driving and pushing. So that's what happened. Why is this say so much traffic? This is nuts. Usually the traffic's in the lane beside me and I can at least move up pretty quick here, but not uh not today. I'm going to get home at 7:00. Yuck. Um anyway, so to recap on like the startup times, it was, you know, this um people merging two directions.

This guy doesn't know how to zipper merge beside me. We know how I feel about that. Okay, stupid head. Get in here. You're now successfully one car ahead. I hope you feel better. Um, startup days were the mission we had. And I mean that, right? I know that like a lot of what I'm saying I realize probably sounds cheesy, but mission was really awesome. Um, underdog type of feeling. I'm motivated by that. Uh, being surrounded by people that are motivated in the same way. And um yeah, just being able to be part of uh like this promise of like delayed grat or yeah delayed gratification kind of thing like if company's going to keep growing or whatever then you can be part of that uh success story later. So all those for me were were awesome.

So if I think about Microsoft like my career has has changed right because while I was at the startup I was writing code every single day uh managing teams at the same time and um only towards the end was I coding a little bit less and that's just because of the scale of influence and stuff uh as the company was growing but um there we had technical managers and managers and I was a technical manager and um what they start like when they were building out the career tracks because like it's a startup we're just making this up um they started putting director career tracks over managers that weren't technical and they didn't have anything above a technical manager uh which which ain't great right so um when it came time for promotions and stuff like that uh and I don't mean I'm not speaking

ill of anyone, but like I had peers that were people I hired that were able to get promoted into director positions uh because they have a director position over a manager role, but there's no like I don't have a career path. So that was pretty weird. Um, so like my time at the end of that was basically helping coordinate like I was still managing two teams but helping coordinate different things across a bunch of teams and um when I'm at Microsoft like my my role is what's a good way to say this? It's like the scale of what we do is really big in terms of what we deliver. It's like, you know, planetary scale. My my role is actually like it's like technically like less than I was doing before, which is kind of weird, right? So, I'm like 5 years later in my career basically operating under the VP.

I don't have a director title, but like it doesn't exist for my my career track and um so I'm doing like cross organization stuff like all day every day because that's where we're at. And at Microsoft, I don't I manage uh the previous team I was on, I managed technically two teams. And um this team I'm on now is is one team, but I have a couple of like you call them like feature crews for smaller teams. So like my career looks different. Um I'm like what motivates me in these situations? I think one of the really cool things that I like and this is like if you're a software engineer maybe this doesn't resonate quite as much but um I started to notice like in the manager track like I really do value being able to help people so and like I don't know

people that I manage they may say well do a better job or something I hope they wouldn't say that I I hope it comes true or comes through to them that I am trying my best I do want the best for them because that does make me feel good. Um that is motivating. It feels really good to help people in their career progression um be more effective if they have challenges, whatever. Even if they're like a if they're a rock star, making sure they have the right opportunities and stuff lined up that they're challenged, they're interested, all of it. Like that to me is super motivating. I really like that. Um, I'm trying to think like at Microsoft like this, you know, I want there's things I like, I guess, but they're not I would say they're not the same type of like that's not the thing that gives me motivation.

Um, so like I like the fact that we have planetary scale because we get to solve some really impactful problems and they can be really interesting that way. So that's cool. Is it motivating? Yeah. But like that's not that's not the thing, right? Um that's not the thing that I'm like because of my like uh I'm staying at Microsoft because I get that. Um so that's not necessarily the case. I think like there's probably the things I mentioned from where I was, those are probably things that like I don't know being able to step away from that role, I can recognize that I really appreciated those things like those are motivating and I don't know maybe maybe during that time I wasn't as aware right I'm kind of you know I'm doing this reflection not quite for the first time, but maybe talking about it this way for the first time, like, yeah, I I know that it was really motivating to to work on like digital forensic software and help save kids.

Like, obviously that was motivating, but I don't know if I was like so aware of just how motivating that was because like when the thing is removed from you, like I don't do that now, but when I reflect on it, I'm like, man, like that was really awesome, right? And I think I'm kind of having the same experience where I'm like that was cool. Like we're not underdogs. We're Microsoft. Like I I don't have that feeling. Sometimes that comes up on um on projects. I can think of an interesting example, right? So um when I was on the deployment team for Office 365, uh we were talking about our we knew OKRs like objectives and key results for planning and I had just joined, right? And so my manager was great. and he was like, "Hey, like we're kind of like around planning time." So, he's like, "I'm not expecting you as a brand new manager to our team.

Like, I haven't taught you anything yet." He's like, "I'm not expecting you to go set the road map, but he's like, I have a bunch of ideas already, and like it's basically going to be the road map, but I'll work with you on, you know, on getting it together." And my team was responsible for uh different sets of optimizations during deployment. And I remember when we were setting our targets, he said like this is the target that I think we should reach for. And I don't know anything about it like historically. Like I'm like cool like you know this space. I don't like I will learn and if you think that's a good target that's a good target. Um and I I just remember getting feedback from the engineers and they were like absolutely not. Like that is crazy. like that is so not achievable.

And I remember my manager being like, "Look, for our OKRs in our org, um we set aggressive goals and we try to be transparent that like, you know, if you get like 80% of the way there, like that's still awesome." Like we want to set them aggressive so that you you come up with creative ways to get there, right? Like that is the goal. Like that's the north star. Aim for it. Sorry, I got a I got a merge and got another person. You don't you're not zipper merging. Okay, good job. Absolutely stupid. So, I can't remember what I was saying because this guy pissed me off, but um around OKRs, aggressive targets, yeah, we want to make sure that we get we get creative to try and like push to the next level, but we we also need to be clear to the engineers like look, like it's not like you're going to you're not getting fired if we don't hit 100% of target kind of thing.

Like, this is what we're striving for. And I just remember talking to the engineers, they're like, "That's nuts." and he was like, "Look, like that's the that's how we're doing it." And like, you know, like we got to get creative to try and solve this problem. And I like I had that feeling of like, okay, like, you know, I'm being told it's not possible by by some of the engineers. And when we started to look into it, like we did it. We absolutely did it. We chipped away at it. It wasn't like, you know, not a trivial thing. It was a whole team effort and it happened. But that feeling of like it can't be done. It's like unless there's physics to prove otherwise like it's going to happen. So that was a really cool thing. But that's an example of a project, right? So that's one project.

And what I was describing before was almost like that was the norm. So that is a difference. But that is a thing that keeps me motivated I think is that kind of thing. Let me in here. I'm be a little bit more aggressive because if I don't get to this fast lane, I'm going to get home tomorrow. Gosh. Um, okay. So, that kind of feeling when it comes up is still like that's motivating. It's just not all the time. Um, autonomy is like if I think about the inverse, right? Like what are things that demotivate me? Losing autonomy really demotivates me. So being micromanaged like that kind of thing. Give me one more sec because I got to hammer on the gas here and get in this lane in just a second. Oh yeah. Come on. Cool. Um so yeah like what demotivates me is losing that autonomy.

Um which means therefore I am motivated by having autonomy. Like I like having goals set in front of me and then enough trust and runway to go do that. So projects like that really help. I don't in my time at Microsoft and this isn't like uh on anyone. and I've had different managers and stuff in my time at Microsoft that's not been consistent. I would say I have not consistently felt like I have autonomy. Whereas before like I think uh my entire time and magnet forensics I felt like I had a lot of autonomy in my role. So like that was cool. Um, at Microsoft it comes and goes. Like there's sometimes where I feel like I have autonomy and other times where I'm like I really don't or sometimes I get the the feeling that I have some autonomy on something and then I realize like I don't.

So it's not consistent. Um, so that does become a demotivator for sure. But I think so far to answer like what is motivating is like uh getting to help people grow is like I think number one for motivation. Uh autonomy and when I can find it that uh that like underdog or like can't be done kind of feeling um is is super cool. But I don't know like I I'm trying to think now outside of like what I might experience or not every day like in general what are things that motivate me like so I I also work on brand ghost outside of work and that's my my content scheduling uh platform for social media and like that motivates me. Why does that motivate me? Right? Like I think something like maybe it's back to autonomy. I don't know. But I have this like I've had this feeling for like I don't know most of my life.

I don't know when I started feeling this way but like I really want to have something that's my own. Like I I really want that. Even when I was working at a that startup, I was like, I know this is not my company. And I'm like, someday I want my own company. I want to be able to like I want to have something that I can say I I made this, right? I really want that. So, oo, a lot of brake lights. So with brand ghost I have like I think that's like an exciting thing for me is like hey maybe maybe someday that is the thing. I don't know. I think it would be super cool. Like if Brand goes totally took off and I could say hey there's a point in my career now where I can go do this and and make this my thing.

That would be totally awesome because like I said, I don't know where it comes from, but something in me is like I want I want to be able to say like I did that that that's mine. And I can't say that about the startup I was at, right? I I worked my ass off for them. I don't regret doing that, right? I know like for some people it's like, "Oh, I worked so hard for this place and now I'm not there and like I shouldn't have done that." No, like it was the best learning experiences of my life, right? I attribute a lot of like like my philosophy on managing and like how I navigate software engineering comes from that and it's because I had a lot of autonomy and I had to I had to learn by doing. So I got to do right and I worked so much it was like 8 years there but I was working like I don't know like 12 to 16 hour days most of the time.

So I don't know it's a few more maybe that adds up to a few more than 8 years. But I think that's another thing for me that's like very motivating is this thought of like I own this like I've created this. So, I think sometimes people can get that with projects at work. I don't I don't think that I've had that since I've been at Microsoft. And I think the reason I don't get that is because I haven't been there to like to found a team to say, "Hey, we're spinning up this team for this thing that I'm going to like create and I'm going to own it." And I I don't know, maybe as a result of that, I never get that feeling like working at a at a company unless unless I'm spinning off a project from a team I'm on and to go lead another new initiative.

But I feel like if I'm brought into a team and I'm working on other things that people have built, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. I'm just saying it doesn't um provide that feeling, right? can't can't check all the boxes all the time and and get that. That's fine. But that's perhaps one thing that's missing. So definitely a motivator is to be like, you know, this is a thing that I've I've made. And when I talk about like a business as well, like cuz I think for a long time it was like I want to be able to say I made this thing, but I'm like no, I I want it to be more than just like a thing I've made. I'd like it to be I'd like it to be a business.

I think that would be, you know, when people talk about if you, you know, were to look back on you're on your deathbed and you look back on your life, I want to be able to say like, I did that and I worked my ass off for it because if I if I worked my ass off for other people for eight years, right, at a startup, I'm not saying I don't work my ass off now. I just mean like that was a different level. I I physically cannot do that right now. If I wanted to do that in the future, I'd have to have a conversation with my wife to be like, look, like if I need this to succeed the same way, maybe it needs to look like that or I need have a point in time where I'm like, I need to be focusing a lot of attention on this.

I just I don't see myself having like physical capacity for that. Um, so my capacity looks different, but I feel like if I've done it for other people, then I should be able to do it for myself, right? No one's going to value it more than me. So, I feel like I almost owe it to myself and uh for me it's a it's a big motivator. So, I think that's another thing I don't like have, but with side projects like Brand Ghost gives me like a a glimpse of that, which is exciting. I know some people talk about like they want interesting challenges, they want to work with cool technology. Um, I think so. Maybe another thing to to mention is like I know I talked about like owning something or like having something I could say built at home, but I just like I like the act of building.

I think like that's a motivator. I don't I don't know a good way to describe this. It's I'm trying my best kind of thinking about some of these ideas for the first time, but I think my entire life I've been very interested in building things. If I'm having activities where I'm not creating or advancing something, it it feels like a waste of time. It's a it's bizarre cuz I' I've always felt this way. And to give you an example, like two things I can think of that have nothing to do with like my career or software, two things come to mind. Um, one is video games. And hear me out because you'll say, "Well, video games are a waste of time." When I play video games, I like role playing games. I like being able to go build a character. I like this idea. For some reason, I like I'm trading time to create.

So, it's weird because it's just a video game character. It's not even real. But, there's something about that process where I'm I'm creating something that um that feels like awesome. Um, Lego would be the other thing was when I was even younger, right? Like I loved building Lego. Would love to do like I just dump all the bricks out. Like I will build whatever all day. Like I love creating. And maybe like an inverse example of this is that like I don't know why, but I find like sports are not enjoyable for me. And I I think that I don't enjoy sports because I don't see that as a way of like personally it doesn't align with me of like how I'm like creating something or building something. You might say you're building skills or you're building a team, whatever, but like I don't it doesn't register with me that way.

So when you play a sport, it's like I don't know like there's no uh there's no buildup of something that happens for me the same way. So, don't really like sports. Maybe that's related. I had another one that came to mind, too. Uh, but anyway, I think my entire life I've had this idea that like I like I like to build and I like to create and otherwise it doesn't feel like it's fulfilling. So I think that's a motivator for me too which is why again brand ghost is a great opportunity because I'm I'm building um obviously I had that before when I was writing more code but I'm not writing code now and like at work but from my experience if I spend more time writing code I am not spending more time doing the part that's more impactful in my role which is working with people.

So need to do that even like sorry just another random thought on on the building part like I and I talked about like using a GitHub co-pilot for like getting PRs and stuff done in my own code and I was just kind of connecting this dot like I've been fascinated with this Because like well even um for programming for me right like I used I used to build a lot of hobby projects like I've probably mentioned on videos before was building like a role playing game like it's never going to be released kind of thing and it doesn't didn't matter. I just like to build it. It's fun, right? I just the act of building it was really really enjoyable. And I'm noticing that I get that same kind of like excitement. Even asking like co-pilot, here's a here's an issue, go do a poll request for it.

There's something that's like very exciting about like there's it's creating. So, I was just kind of connecting the dots that even though I'm not the one necessarily writing the code in that example, I'm like it's it's it's exciting. I like the other day I was uh I went to bed It's maybe two days ago or something. I can remember this. I went to bed and I was like closing my eyes or whatever, trying to fall asleep and then I just thought of like, hey, you know what? Like, I've been thinking that I should probably I can't remember what the feature was, but I was like, I should either fix this or add this into Brand Ghost. Like, I've been meaning to do this. It's not a priority, but I bet you co-pilot could.

And I remember just like kind of like sitting up getting my phone and go make this issue assign it to co-pilot because it's exciting like it's going to get made and even if it's not perfect I'll review it and now I have more code like I have more functionality I built more. So very motivated by building, creating. Uh maybe another thing like to look at it a different way. I mentioned uh helping people like in their career and stuff like that like as a manager that that is very rewarding for me. I think um trying to zoom out to other parts of like what's motivating for me. So like I do content creation and this these this these are just my vlogs that you're watching but um like on my main channel like trying to make tutorials or doing live streams to help like share experiences and help other people.

The I like teaching. I think that's a thing that I really enjoy too. um whether like how effective I am different story I like to think that I am a decent teacher but I I like that I don't think that I could ever be a teacher as a career. So I don't think the role of a teacher is something I want or like the profession of it but I like being able to teach. There's something very rewarding about being like part of someone going from like I don't get this to like that aha moment feels really good to be like you know I I could do that for you. I could be a stepping stone for you there. I really like that. So cuz I'm about to get off the highway soon to kind of put some of these things together, right? Like I like teaching.

I like helping others. I like building. These are all motivating. I really like that underdog feeling or it can't be done kind of feeling. But how you how you try to find all of these in one spot is like I don't know. I I honestly don't and you know was fortunate before I enjoy my role now. I feel like the only way that I'm in a position to check all of those boxes is like ultimately someday I have to do it for myself someday because then I'm actually in control of that. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I I I kind of I kind of feel like that's the way. If I want to check all those boxes to get motivated by this, motivated by that, it's got to be for me. Come on, switch lanes, buddy. Here we go. Yeah. So, that's a lot of rambling for me.

Curious about you. You know, what are you motivated by? maybe not in your current role, maybe something that you're noticing is demotivating for you and you can use that as the opposite to say, you know, if I could find this in a role or something like that would be super motivating for me. Um, you know, is it different technical challenges? I think for me it's not necessarily like it's just like a I know I've been saying the underdog thing or like it can't be done, I'll show you. So, it's not necessarily that it's an interesting challenge. It's more just like that someone told me it can't be done. That's the That's the thing. Uh maybe it's a boring thing, but I'm like, if you said it can't be done, I'll prove to you. Um yeah, I don't know. Do you like interesting challenges? Technology? Is it people?

Is it just the paycheck? There's nothing wrong if it's just the paycheck. Like I said, it was a top voted thing on Reddit, so other people are thinking it. I think that's up there for sure. But I'm going to be sitting at this light for a bit it looks like. So maybe I'll wrap it up there. So I wanted to say thanks for watching and just a reminder if you want questions answered leave them below in the comments. Happy to try and answer and otherwise send them into Dev Leader on social media. I'll see you next time.