The Boundary Problem Every Developer Faces

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, I'm just right out of the office here on Friday and we're going to go to the experienced dev subreddit. This is a topic about trying to manage I guess like expectations with another team as a as a developer. So, this uh this person was essentially writing that they're getting kind of feels like they're being bombarded by a team to try and get some help and seems like there was some type of handoff of some work, some project to this other team, which is a not a unusual thing to have happen, right? And I think that they're experiencing like a lot of distraction from it, right? So, I I feel like most people want to help, right? Like I think I I at least personally like to believe that most people are not malicious. Most people aren't So, like we want to help.

And you try to help and then like in this person's case, it kind of feels like okay, like I've been trying to help and now it's getting to a point where like it's it's kind of getting on my nerves. And it's frustrating for a couple reasons because one is like they're obviously, you know, being distracted by this and two I would say is like they probably do want to help and they're like, "Hey, like uh I can only do so much here." So trying to to balance this, right? I'm sure if they're and it's not like a real situation, but if their manager went to them and said, "Hey, like forget everything else you're doing. it's totally okay to just help this team. Then this person would probably be like, "Okay, like I guess that's what I'm expected to do." Um, maybe that would be less shitty.

But of course, I'm assuming this person probably also wants to be able to work on different things, too. So, they're kind of like, "How do I navigate this without sounding or coming across like I'm not a team player, right?" which is I think I think that's an indicator that they're, you know, their heart's in the right spot. What's going on here? Why is the highway? Don't you dare. Don't you dare. If you're going to come in the fast lane, then you got to be going more than 30 miles an hour, pal. Simple as that. Um, something's going on here. But yeah, their heart's in the right spot. They're trying to help. And that's like they're trying to figure out like how do I do this without just being an Because clearly they're not they're having a difficult time balancing what they're doing. And so I thought this one would be good to talk about because this is a very common situation.

It shows up in different ways whether it's from a project handover, whether that's from I was talking about platform teams in one of the recent videos, right? So as a platform team, how do you help support? Um it could be, you know, a a peer on your team. It could like could be so many different situations where this kind of thing comes up and it might just look slightly different. And so I think that it's important to talk about because one of the first comments I saw in the thread, which I don't fully disagree with to be transparent, I don't fully disagree with this, but someone said oneliner sounds like a problem for your manager to go solve and it's very highly upvoted. And so I don't completely disagree with this, but I also don't like that it's a oneliner because it's like I don't I don't think that's I don't think it stops there.

So, I absolutely do think that this is something that if someone was struggling with this that this isn't a great topic to discuss with your manager. It's a great one because you are literally experiencing um sort of this pull between different sets of expectations, right? One set of expectations is that you probably have this on yourself and you know your manager, your team members probably expect this of you too. You are a contributing member of the team. You are you're going to have like projects, features, bug fixes, design documents, all the stuff that you're expected to do on your team, right? And so there is this expectation on you that you are going to be able to continue to deliver on these things. That's how that looks.

Now the other expectation that's now on you is that this team is like hey we need support we're expecting that you are going to support us and there's like this other level to that uh expectation which is like you have an expectation whether that's uh intrinsic because of your values uh you know maybe maybe somewhat intrinsic because of like company culture team culture whatever it happens to be but like you have this expectation that like you should be a team player, you should be helping out. So there is a conflict in terms of the expectations that are on you. And that's why I think this is a great one to talk about with your manager. And so to this person's comment where they're like, "Sounds like a problem for your manager to go solve." Um I think it's a I think it's a good topic for you to talk about with your manager.

Uh, and I think that at the end of the day, if you're trying a bunch of things out and nothing's working, then absolutely this is something for your manager to try and step in uh and and try to help navigate because it could be something that your your sort of participation in whatever this looks like. um the other team or or whatever the situation is. The other team may have just a completely different set of expectations even up through their management and maybe that makes a lot of sense for your manager to get involved and try to clarify things and and kind of set uh expectations working with the other manager whatever it happens to be. So, I 100% think that this is a great conversation to have with your manager and different flavors of this situation are a great conversation to have with your manager.

And um at the end of the day that like this is something that I I fully believe a manager should be able to step in and help with. But the reason I don't love this oneliner answer is because and I don't I don't know if this person when they write a comment like that if they mean it this way, if they're just kind of being smug, whatever. But what I what I don't want people to do is kind of learn this pattern of like, hey, this isn't a good scenario or this seems challenging because it's like interpersonal or across teams. So immediately when I see patterns like this, I'm like, well, that's that's a manager problem, right? I see I recognize pattern. I'm just going to like, okay, manager, go do it. Um, and I'm not saying that I don't like that because like as a manager, I don't I don't want to do more things.

I am h like my job is literally to help my engineers be more effective in what they're doing. So yes, like being able to step in and help is 100% part of my job. So it's not that I don't want more work. It's that I don't think that if your uh rein uh mechanism of like reinforcement here is just going to teach you to to not solve problems or not try to or to try and navigate them, then I think you're missing out on a lot. Okay? And so in this person's situation, uh, I can't recall. They might have said they've been trying and they're kind of at a loss, but I don't know what they've been trying. I don't know for how long. I don't know what things that they've been trying to do here. So, I would absolutely say, especially if you've been trying a bunch of things and it's not making progress and it's kind of piling up on you, hell yeah, talk with your manager.

And at that point in that conversation, this is why I think it's important to talk about it versus just like tell them and have an expectation that it's just off your plate, right? It might be, but I think having the conversation can lead to a couple things. One is that you can talk through the things you've been trying, right? You might I'm just going to make up some examples here, right? Like you might have had all of the right things to go try, right? You might have tried clarifying expectations with them. You might have been like, "Okay, I'm not going to do these things for you. I'm going to show you how to do them so that like now you know how to do it on your own." And for the next thing, I'll go one level beyond that. I'll show you where it's all documented.

So the next unknown problem you have like go to the documentation first, right? Or use uh you know some of our AI tools that can help explain these things to you or we have skills to help like AI skills to help go do this. um you might be trying those things and so like you know check check these are all the right things to consider and then when you're talking about it with your manager you're kind of like debugging what went down and maybe maybe how things were communicated just wasn't clear. Maybe you were telling one person and uh having the expectation that they're going to go tell all their team members and what's happening is that it's kind of happening in isolation. So one team member learns about it and then they keep it to themselves.

Then the next team member reaches out to you and now you're teaching them and then you're teaching the third, you're teaching the fourth and like there's just so many people like this that it's it's not seeming to have an impact in a positive way for you, right? Like going through the conversations like this might help you realize like, hey, look, you are absolutely on the right track and here's one more thing to consider. uh because like clearly it wasn't landing and and we can go figure out why. Then your manager might say with you, like talking with you, like, "Hey, you should go back and and try this again." Like now that we understand what we think is happening, like go try this out or try these couple things out. And then the side effect of that is like you go through the motions, you know, just from having this like rubber ducking kind of conversation with your manager.

You've figured out some new ideas. You still go through the motions. And then at the end of the day, you end up like, you know, solving the problem or at least improving the situation. And to me, that's a huge win. Again, not because as a manager, I'm like, I don't want to do any work, but as a manager, I'm helping people navigate situations like this so they can be more effective earlier on, right? same type of conversation when you have with your manager. They might actually tell you like it's not even that you're um that you're doing the right things and you just like maybe there's communication gaps or whatever. Maybe you got stuck and you didn't actually know what things to try in the first place, right? One of the common things I often see is that this comes with uh I usually find with like experience and sort of maturity is that and I'm generalizing here but uh when people are kind of stressed out trying to help, right?

They're like I I'm feeling like I don't have a lot of time and like I have my own to do. I still want to help. What they end up doing is that when someone asks for help, they do the work themselves. So someone's like, "Hey, Nick, I need help." And I'm like, "Oh man, I got so much to do. Like, let me just do it because if I do it, I know it's quick. Like, I can I can power through this, you know? Maybe it's I I'm an expert at collecting the data and going to the dashboard. It'll take me 10 minutes. let me just click through a few things, get some data, double check something, and then we're good, right? Like I have minimized the amount of time that I have to spend on this problem. Like thank you and like kindly go away so I can get back to my work, right?

And I think some people fall into this pattern because they're feeling that stress and they're like, I just I need to get unblocked so I can get back to being productive. But the challenge with stuff like this is that like you're perpetuating it unfortunately, right? Every time especially in a situation where like the ownership is supposed to be passed over, you are like unfortunately perpetuating because you are solving the problem for them instead of teaching them how to solve the problem themselves. And it is unfortunate because teaching people to go solve their own problems takes more time. And when I've talked about this in other videos in more targeted situations, I will say things like you have to uh slow down to speed up kind of thing and it feels like more uncomfortable in the beginning cuz you're already like, "Shit, man, I don't have

any time and like now you want me to go teach people or I was already trying to teach people and I have to double down on this like oh my goodness, it's not going to work." Like kind of unfortunately, right? It might be how you're teaching things. It might be um getting like teaching people and then getting them to teach the next group of people. Different strategies, but getting to a point where you're moving away from solving problems for other people and teaching them to solve problems. And then, you know, the step beyond that is like it's not just oneoff things that you know how to solve. It's uh it's actually like let me show you how you can like learn how to solve other problems. Where do you go for information? This kind of stuff. So it takes more work unfortunately but at the end of the day like it helps people become more effective.

And I think that's a cop. And I feel like he's approaching, but this is also my exit. It is a cop. We're safe. Am I the only person that ever feels like I must be doing something illegal because there's a police officer nearby? I don't like that. It's like when you cross the border, I always feel like I'm going through security and I'm like, "Oh, do I have a a weapon on me?" And I'm like, "I don't I don't even own a weapon." Okay, let's get one more lane over here. So for this person, right, like my my recommendation, I don't I don't know what level of detail they've gone into and trying to solve this on their own, but seems that they're kind of reaching a bit of a tipping point, right? So if they're already at this point where they're like, "Okay, this is super frustrating," I would say absolutely.

Uh, you know, set up time with your manager to talk about it. And um I I don't know. I can't speak for everyone's manager, but if I had someone on my team coming to me being like, "Hey, I've been trying to help this team and like kind of struggling with it." My first reaction is not going to be like, "Oh man, like what? You're not a team player?" Right? Like that's not my reaction. I know it's going to feel that way for some people because they do care. I get it. But I'm letting you know like that's not my first reaction. That's not the first thing I think about you is what you don't care about other people. Like it's almost the opposite. The fact that you're struggling to balance priorities, it's because you care about other people and you're trying to do the right thing, you know, by by your values and probably, you know, our team and company values.

So, I think it's a good thing to talk about. My first reaction is not, oh, this person doesn't care about another team. And it's not that oh this person can't prioritize their own time properly on our own work. It's I get it like this is a challenging thing because you have conflicting priorities. So let's talk about that, right? Um so I'd be very happy to have conversations with someone about this kind of stuff. I do have conversations with people about this kind of stuff. Um it's a great one-on-one topic. It's uh it's something in my opinion like if you're doing like weekly or bi-weekly one-on- ons like I wouldn't wait if you're feeling it on a a Tuesday and your next one is like uh the Thursday and the week after like man like I would message your manager or whatever and just say hey like can I borrow some time so we can talk about this like I I don't think it's something that you should wait on to have a conversation about.

Okay. And then what I would recommend is when you're sitting down to talk to your manager about is like give them some background. They might know. I don't know. Every situation is going to be different. They might be fully aware, right? Like they might even be in the chat where you are. Um and maybe the way that they're perceiving that is that, hey, you got it covered and cool, like they're kind of hands off. They might be uh totally unaware that you're doing this, which is a even better reason to be talking about it. So try to give some background, catch your manager up on what you've been trying to do. And I would say it's no shame in saying like like how do I say this properly? Ideally, you've tried some things. Okay, ideally. Now, if you're struggling because you're like, I just don't know what to do because I haven't found myself in a situation like this.

I would encourage like for me in my direct reports I I would never want someone to be ashamed to come and talk to me and be like I just don't know what to do right that's totally cool there's always going to be first times for things there's like that's fine if you don't know what to do no problem let's chat through it right you haven't you haven't even tried anything because you don't know what to do that's okay let's chat about it um now if this is something that you know after 10 times of us having conversations like this, you're like, I've tried nothing. Then I would be questioning like, am I teaching this the wrong way or like is this genuinely different or or like, you know, is there some type of challenge uh with this individual? Um, and like something's not lining up right.

But especially in the beginning, like literally no concerns on my end. And if you have tried things like share those share what you've tried, give some background and then explain what you're still observing and why it's not effective. And then I think another important thing is kind of calling out like you know to me this is challenging because I feel like I have these conflicting priorities and this one in particular is not improving. So you don't want to find yourself in this situation where you're like paying this permanent tax so to speak by supporting a team. Okay. So I think that's how I would frame up the conversation and then I would you know there's so much variability from that point on that it's about talking through what you've tried trying to debug things that maybe you thought were the right things and they're not they're not panning out.

And then ultimately if uh you're talking about that with your manager and either there's nothing new to try or you know you you go back try some stuff and it's still not working then yeah uh might be a good opportunity for your manager to jump right in and say hey like let me let me level let me try to level set expectations with uh the other team. Um, at the end of the day, I find that these types of situations are like I I don't think I've ever seen a situation like this where people are being malicious about it. Like the other team's just so lazy that like they don't they don't care about you. They're like, "Whatever. I'm going to keep asking Billy cuz Billy will just keep doing it. Screw Billy. Like I'm going to work remote, play video games, and just ask Billy questions so he has to do it." Like screw you.

Haha. Like I don't I've never found myself ever in a situation where that's remotely close to feeling like reality. Um maybe it is reality. I don't know. But I've never felt that way. Um, on the surface sometimes it can kind of feel like maybe people are being lazy or whatever else, but uh, honestly, I think when you dig into these types of things, you might have engineers from the other team that are reaching out for help and like they're also under some crazy pressure or don't have clear expectations set for them and they're just like, I'm just trying to make progress, right? I I don't know a better way to make progress except ask for help this way. So, they're just trying their best. And that's not to say that like they can't do better. It's not to say that they can't work with their manager more effectively.

I'm sure they can, right? But it's it's very likely not malicious. It's just someone trying their best. So, um my recommendation for folks is like if you're ever in situations like this, it's so much easier said than done. I promise you. Uh cuz I have I've certainly found myself in situations like this. Uh even you know in recent times where uh there's a teammate um like assume that people are acting with best intentions, right? Sometimes it doesn't feel that way. Sometimes you're annoyed. You're at your limit. But you know, please try to assume that people are acting with best intentions. They're trying their best. And I think if you can frame things like that mentally for yourself, you can make things a lot easier because you're not starting off the problem solving with like, "Wow, I hate this person. They piss me off, right? You might have some feelings like that because you're annoyed and frustrated.

But uh if you can try to suppress that and just like you know few deep breaths and you know reframe it to like hey this person is trying to do their job as best as they can. Uh we have a common goal which is that we're trying to support our customers and you know do the right thing. Okay. Deep breath. Deep breath. They're trying to do their best. how can I help this person and still set some boundaries for myself? Right? And uh in some like sometimes it's a matter of like you know one of the things that you might end up discussing with your manager is like pointing people to the resources and setting boundaries and being like hey like you know if you still need support like it's not 24-hour on call seven days a week. So maybe you can cue up some questions and we can do them once a week for you or something like that.

So many different strategies here. But uh I totally forgot to uh talk about like setting boundaries as part of some of the options here, but that's uh definitely part of it. And if you're uncomfortable doing that, working with your manager to like communicate that I think is a really good strategy, too. So, I'm at work. See you later.