What Can Burnout Look Like as a Software Engineer?

Transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Hey folks, I'm driving to work here. I'm just doing a a double whammy. Um I just did a video on cumulative GPA uh for resumes. And this video is going to be about burnout. This was requested um in the comments to to talk through it. I think it was Sorry I'm driving and I can't look at it, but I think it was the improvever who left a comment on this. Uh every time they ask a question and I answer it, I'm going to refer to them as that by the way. So um but yeah I'm going to talk about burnout because uh the question was really around different types of burnout and for context uh I was saying that when I used to work at a startup for Microsoft uh I used to work like almost non-stop and enjoyed doing it and when I did experience burnout it was different than what I think is typical.

Now, the burnout I'm experiencing at Microsoft is what I would say is probably pretty typical. And I wanted to talk through sort of the different feelings and maybe the different um observations that I have about why these these look and feel different. So, I'll talk through that. So, just a friendly reminder that if you want questions answered, leave them below in the comments. And uh if you want to be kept anonymous and write in something, you can look for dev leader on social media. Happy to answer your questions. I'll keep you anonymous if you message in that way. Um so with that said, um where to start? So the let me start at the the startup times. Okay, so for context, used to work at a startup before Microsoft. Uh I left there just under 5 years ago now. Maybe it was about 5 years ago.

Um and then came to Microsoft, but I was there for uh 8 years and uh I started there right after I graduated and I basically just worked non-stop. Uh I didn't have other responsibilities. I'm I would call myself like pretty boring in terms of hobbies. Like I like video games and I like going to the gym. So, if as long as I could go to the gym and have my food prepped and stuff cuz I was uh like into bodybuilding, I don't care. Like, I didn't have a girlfriend. Uh I didn't have animals. I didn't have uh I paid off my student loans like pretty quick. Like, I just didn't have other responsibilities, right? And I feel like I would argue my perspective was my health was taken care of because I'm going to the gym every day. I'm eating well. like so health is covered uh and I just love to work.

So one thing that was really important or when I reflect on this it's a really important like uh set of factors is that um no one made me work long hours. Okay, so that's an important part. No one forced me to do it. No one asked me to do it. No one expected me to do it. Okay, so this was completely by choice. I think that's part one. Part two was that um I think the mission that we had was very uh like noble I guess I don't know better words like impactful. Um so we were making digital forensics software and one of the primary use cases is for help catching uh people that are abusing children uh especially sexually which is obviously a very uncomfortable topic but um being able to be part of creating software to help catch people like that like I don't it's I don't I don't think I will ever find anything else in my entire life from a from a work perspective that feels is more fulfilling.

Um truly so awesome mission to be able to help with that. Um so that was another part and then the other thing that I would mention is like I was given a uh maybe there's two parts this given a lot of autonomy right so like hey there's this problem space like we trust you like go off and and sort it out. So that was really nice because I had control over how I wanted to do things. And then the final part I would say is that I feel like I was compensated. Like I feel like I would do the work and good things would happen. Right? So I've talked about this before like promotions and stuff wasn't really a thing but cuz we were a startup like titles were kind of weird. we're still figuring them out for almost the entire time I was there. And um so it would be like maybe, you know, I'm consistently demonstrating that I'm adding value, so more stock, uh sometimes cash, bonuses, things like that.

Um and I I think just continued trust and autonomy, right? Like I could keep showing that I can deliver on this stuff. So here's, you know, here's more responsibility, here's more autonomy. And honestly, um, felt good, right? Like I said, no one made me do it. I was very motivated to do it like from within. Now, when I talk about burnout from this startup, the reason I say it's different is because it's not like I would wake up and like dread going to work or like I couldn't get out of bed. Um, like I feel like traditional burnout is kind of like depression in terms of the symptoms that you see. Um, hard to find joy in things, like hard hard to get out of bed. Like it's just like you're completely run down, exhausted, emotionally drained. A lot of these things are very similar with depression.

Um, and by the way, I I don't mean to equate these things because I am not personally uh equipped well enough to be able to do that. I'm just talking about some of the symptoms that I observe between the two. Um, but that's not what was happening, right? Like I would wake up and like be energized to go work on stuff. I would stay up late to go work on stuff. I would work weekends because I was interested in working on stuff. So, I would just work. When I talk about burnout from this perspective though, I think what was happening was that it was all of the other parts of my life that were getting completely wrecked. So, not my like not my my physical body because like I said, I was going to the gym, but like social relationships and stuff. Um, absolutely. I developed a lot of social anxiety.

So, I've talked about this before, but even like going to hang out with my friends, if it wasn't at like a familiar spot for me, it was very uncomfortable, right? Like I would be happy to host friends, but if I had to go drive somewhere and it was like I'm not really familiar with it or there's going to be other people that I don't know, not a huge fan. Um it made um dating very difficult. Uh would argue that I was uh extremely lonely, but like one of those things that I don't even know if you like you notice it while it's happening. like when I reflect on it 100% like very very obvious but uh was you know probably extremely lonely and extremely anxious but I was filling all of my time with work so a lot of this stuff wasn't really observed.

Um eventually when I started to realize some of the signs like I think the social anxiety like kind of getting to the point like a trigger for me was like going to meet people and people would say like oh like you know like tell me about yourself like what do you what are you interested in right you're just meeting someone for the first time and it doesn't have to be like a romantic thing I just mean like even friends or whatever acquaintances and it would be the only thing I could say was like I work like I literally don't have any other interests. I work. So, my identity was work. And I started to realize like maybe I have a bit of a problem here. And maybe that's attributing to like why I don't like meeting people or why I'm nervous to go out uh and socialize.

Um because I wasn't like that before. I used to, you know, on weekends and stuff in school would love to go go out, party with friends and stuff, like anything to just like kind of reset before I went into the next week. I was very social, but not when I was doing that with work. Um, even the beginning with work, I was very like we'd go out and stuff like a uh you know, with colleagues and all of that. And it reached a point where like I was like, I don't like doing that. like I don't I just don't like being around people. Okay, so that's I think what it used to look like for me. But I want you to kind of consider the things that that led me there and why I was like okay with uh how things were going until I realized there was a problem.

Right? I didn't know there was a problem until later. If we compare that and contrast it with the burnout that I'm experiencing currently, um I noticed I was burnt out like very quickly. So I am December, January, February, March, um going into April. So I've finished four months of a project uh that was supposed to be wrapped up in four months, but we needed a there's a month-long extension just because of scheduling. Um, not because the project is failing or anything. It's just kind of a weird uh logistics thing. So, one more month of this, slightly less, maybe 3 weeks now. Um, but like I don't know, just over a month in, I was like, I am absolutely burnt out. And like the traditional kind of burnout where I'm like, I don't I don't want to get out of bed. Uh, I don't want to do anything.

Like, nothing's enjoyable. Um, I don't like what I'm doing. Like just everything was awful. And when I think about why, right? Um, let me focus on the positive parts first cuz like I don't want to talk about this like I'm uh I'm not trying to rant about work and stuff, right? I'm trying to compare and contrast. That's the focus. So just for context and framing, when I talk about negative things, it's not complaining. It's like an observation. So that's why I want to focus on the positive parts first. Um, I was able to take on this project to lead it, which in my opinion was an amazing opportunity. Don't get me wrong. I knew it was going to be a ton of work. Um, but being able to take this on and be like responsible for it, very thankful that my manager gave me the opportunity to do that.

Um, truly like not being sarcastic or anything, right? Um, so it's like I knew it was going to be a big ask and I'm happy that he thought about me for it and kind of gave me the opportunity to step up to it. So that's a really good thing. Um the other part that I would say is like the impact that this work is having uh on our on our team and our sort of peripheral uh like our partners and stuff I think is tremendous. Um you know I'm I I've said this in other videos. I I can't thank the team enough for all the work they've done because the the observed impact that we've had as the project has been going on has been like really cool to see like um just the results. So, um, you know, I think that's awesome. I got to switch lanes here and people aren't letting it happen.

Thank you. Okay, got one more. Um, so like there there's goodness, right? Like don't get me wrong. Um, I think I think the the burnout part comes from I mean there's a bunch of things that I think impact it. I think that I have felt in in a bunch of situations there hasn't been a lot of autonomy or I perceive autonomy and then I realize like no um that's not the case. So without giving like specifics um kind of like hey like go off and solve this and then we go off and solve it and then coming back and being like well well not that way it should have been done this way and I feel like that on repeat like almost almost every single thing that I've seen in this project has kind of felt like that. Um, and that is very uh draining, right?

Cuz it's like, well, then it's it's almost like a fake autonomy, like why did I the next time I go to do something, why should I even go off and do it when I feel like I'm going to have to come back and and recclarify? So, that's been kind of crappy. Um, I think the amount of effort that goes into uh different types of documentation is extremely draining for me. So, I feel like the the return on investment for that is extremely low. Not, and don't get me wrong, not that um I'm not saying there's no value in it. I'm saying um proportionally, right? Um I feel like that's uh sort of just completely out of out of whack. Um so that's been very draining. Um I don't know. I think there there's a handful of things, but I think it comes down to like it's a very different setup than what I had before.

Uh where I was just like, hell yeah, like I want to go do this. Um it's like I don't want to do anything. Um, and it puts me in a very difficult position because I'm leading the project and the as as someone who has to lead something um I need to make sure that the group of people that I am leading this is beyond just my immediate team that I manage. This is my larger team plus partners. Um, I know that if I'm feeling drained, I know they are too. And I need to make sure that, well, based on my leadership style, I lead with empathy. So, I try to make sure that um, you know, if other people are feeling drained, if they're feeling kind of burnt out, like I want to be there for them and make sure that I can kind of get their spirits up, keep them engaged.

That's just kind of how I am as a person and that carries over into my leadership. But the the problem or the challenge is like that um you don't have like an infinite tank of energy to be able to do that. And as an introverted person in the first place, peopleing can be very taxing. So, it's already I'm at a bit of a disadvantage of this kind of stuff because it will tire me out. Um, but I'm like, you know, a month in feeling burnt out and then being like, okay, but I need to keep up the I don't want to say illusion cuz I feel like that's misleading. I need to keep up the and I don't want to use the word facade, but that's the next word that comes to mind. Um, I need to I need to basically maintain as I lead the team that like I need my composure.

I need to make sure that they're all feeling good and uh it's very very difficult and as a result it becomes more and more draining. So I think that there's a lot of just a lot of differences in um in the setup, but this certainly feels like traditional burnout. Uh, I've been saying the thing that at least the sort of the good news is that this project has an end date. Um, I was quite disappointed when we moved the end date out a month. Um, fully realizing that the intention was very positive. We just needed to we needed a couple of extra days because a a bunch of really key people on this project were pulled into something extra working weekends and stuff. And so we said, "Hey, just to prepare um you know, the final exit here, we just want an extra week to to collect our thoughts because we've been pretty uh pretty overwhelmed." But that got pushed a month.

So like for me the that's like that's one extra month of not being able to escape the feeling of burnout purely from this project and now there's more stuff layering on top which is compounding. So um again I I don't mean for this to sound like uh complaining. This is just kind of the reality of things. Um, I've had what I would call very, very good work life balance at Microsoft for almost the full five years that I've been here. Um, but since December, absolutely not. Um, and that's not Oh, there's another microphone in here. Um, that's not like any person's fault. It's not I I don't think that this is the new norm or something like that. It's just I just think I've had a couple of call them situations or scenarios that the way they've unfolded has meant that my time and energy is being spent a particular way.

So it's uh so I said I'm not I'm not complaining. I'm just kind of going through the the observations of uh about how things have been going. So, one thing I'll add is like um you know, I've been talking about burnout and stuff. I'm one of my my main tips with burnout is like awareness of it, right? So, I've been talking about it regularly and trying to make sure that I have things identified so that I'm not being oblivious to it. But, um so I think that's been good trying to remind myself like there is a an end in sight. And then um sorry, someone moved over a lane and I thought they were going to pull right back in. That wouldn't have been good because we're in a bigger vehicle than me. Um what was the last thing I wanted to say there?

Um, oh, yeah, I wanted to talk about like like once you're in this state though, like I kind of peaked burnout like I don't know, uh, just over a week ago, almost two. Um, and like literally got physically sick. Like I remember working late, being the the most burnt out, like literally the peak of it, and like got sick. Uh like physically got like a a sinus infection while it was happening. Like by the time I was going to bed, I went from working and being okay to like sinus infection. And I've been sick for the past, you know, week and a bit. And finally, today is like the first day that I wasn't like up all night. um not being able to breathe and stuff. So, I miss like a couple weeks of recording YouTube videos on my main channel. Like I can kind of manage on this channel because it's not edited down and polished, but can't make tutorials and stuff if you're uh all over the place.

So, um anyway, yeah, but the uh recovery path is kind of tricky because just what's a good way to put this? like it it's kind of like depression where you just want to stay in bed, but that's like not going to solve anything. And uh any any time or any periods of my life where I have felt um like kind of uh waves of depression. It's been more of like a what you want to do is just stay in bed and not get out of bed and not move. But what helps the most I have found every single time is like the exact opposite. going out, doing things, being around people, getting distracted enough for a long enough period of time that you just start to get back in the groove of doing other things. Um, and so right now I'm kind of struggling a bit with um with finding things that are enjoyable, which is hard.

Um, so like I really like working on Brand Ghost and I have a bunch of ideas and then sometimes like you know while I'm driving for example I'm like oh yeah like I got to go got to go do that like that's going to be good. I can't wait to do that and then I sit down at the computer and I'm like don't want to do it. I don't want to do anything. And um that makes it that makes it really challenging because I need to do things to get the momentum uh so that I'm not feeling this particular way. Um, so like over the weekend we went out for uh to to visit with friends for a friend's birthday. Uh, we were out on the lake paddle boarding and stuff, which is like not something I ever do, but that's a perfect example of like needed to pull myself out, right?

Like needed to go do something. Um, so because I've experienced things like this before, when I see an opportunity like that and my wife like makes the plan, so like I mean it's not like I opted in uh sort of like took it under my own control and did it, but instead of being like, "No, no, like I want to skip out on that." It's like, nope, like I need I need to go do that. Like selfishly that's going to be a good thing for me. Um, so I just need to like, yeah, not not fall in the trap of uh doing nothing. So, um, I don't know. I hope that helps. Try to draw a comparison between the two. Um, but yeah, burnout really sucks. It looks different uh for different people, different scenarios. And I said it not long ago, but like yeah, I think the most important part is awareness because if you're not aware of what's going on, it's really difficult to try and drive change that you need.

So, um, thanks for watching and I hope that helps. Take care.