Can You Really Go Back to Coding After Being a Manager?

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Hey folks, headed to CrossFit here. Going to experience dev subreddit. This topic is an engineering manager that's actually uh worried about um how likely or possible it is for them to switch back to being a individual contributor. Now uh the reason for that is I think they're kind of nervous about uh demand for their skills. They're, you know, they I think they said they've been in the industry for 20 years and they've been a manager for six years and they hate it. Surprise. Yeah. I think they literally say, "Surprise, surprise. I hate it." Um, and I totally can understand why for, you know, most engineers that go into engineering management probably don't enjoy it. Um the few interesting things I want to touch on is like one we have someone with 20 years of experience that's like nervous or afraid I don't know the right word concerned probably a safe word to use.

Um I wanted to talk about the fact that you know engineering like software development and uh managing teams is uh very very very different sets of skills and interests. um and talk about how that's not I mean we often do it as a promotion but it's genuinely not a promotion. It's a lateral move. Uh it's just that we often bucket those things together. And I'll see if there's anything else interesting that kind of comes up along the way. But um this one it caught my attention right because because of those things. And to start off um on the on the sort of like the skill issue thing, I suspect a lot of this comes from the competitive job market right now, right? Um you have a huge volume of people that are applying for positions. This isn't like news to anyone right at this moment. Um, if you're looking for jobs and stuff or you're just kind of actively paying attention to the job market, um, definitely lots and lots and lots of people applying.

Uh, I don't have stats, but I'm assuming this is probably more than it ever has been. So, it's extremely competitive. Um, and then buddy, it's still red. You can't drive through that. Um so you have a lot of competition right like every role that opens up gets tons of applicants. Um we have the fact that AI is sort of uh becoming this force of nature when it comes to software development. So I don't know maybe for this individual that's a big concern for them. And then probably this third layer which is um probably some amount of imposttor syndrome or like you know they're they're a little rusty on some things but you know they've been an engineering manager for 6 years. I don't know how much code they've been writing. Um like for me I've been an engineering manager at Microsoft specifically for 5 years. I've written almost no code at Microsoft in 5 years.

done a lot of code reviews and things like that, but um I'm not actively contributing to the code base. Um but I program every single day. I don't know for this individual if they're 6 years removed from writing code, like that's probably going to feel pretty rough. Not to say that that's impossible or they shouldn't try, but like I'm trying to say that that feeling of being like, am I going to be cut out for this? I feel like that's justified if you haven't done the thing in in 6 years. And I'm kind of thinking on my own experience. If I have been at Microsoft for 5 years and I hadn't programmed since Magnet Forensics 5 years ago, I would probably be like, man, like what do I got to like what do I have to to catch up on here? Like there's there'd be a big gap.

like things move very very fast in uh in the software engineering space. So um all that to say that you know I think there's a lot of things stacked up sort of air quotes here against this person and I feel like it's uh be normal for them to kind of feel this way about what's going on. Now I don't think that means that it's impossible or they shouldn't do it or anything else. Um, I I I'm a firm believer that like if you need to change and you want something like you find the ways to make that happen, um, is it going to be challenging? Sure. But it's going to be challenging for all these things I've already said in this in this video. It's not like something being challenging is not a good reason to not do it, right?

Like it was challenging for me to get into software development like to land a job and it was nine years of programming 5 years university still had to do it because that's what I wanted to do. I had to go after that. Now, if this person wants to do a career change like that, I think it it's probably going to be challenging. But I think if that's what they want, they they need to do it because otherwise, like going through the rest of your career just like hating what you're doing, I don't think is that's not like a in my opinion, that's not like a good life strategy. So, sure, you might have to experience a little bit of discomfort, and I don't mean to minimize that, but I'm I'm saying a little bit of discomfort like relative to the rest of your life. Um I think it's minimal.

Um you know in the short term definitely not going to feel minimal though. So there's like assuming that this is a you know at least a decent engineering manager. I'd like to believe that uh you know think the best of everyone. Um, I'm sure they have lots of great experiences that will help make them stand out in terms of a a more senior software engineer. I don't know necessarily what level they're applying for, what company, all this kind of stuff like that the naming makes a difference and stuff, but um the fact that they have, you know, six years of managing engineering teams should help them in some of the more uh senior software engineering style roles because it's not that as a senior software engineer, senior plus that you're that you're managing people necessarily, but being able to navigate projects, coordinate things, work with others at that scale.

I think there's a lot of value that uh an engineering manager role, having experience in that could bring. But um I'm making a big assumption here, but I that assumption is that the tech part is going to be what's tricky for them because they're probably rusty on it. But I I feel like that will come back pretty quick. I my biggest concern for this person would be interviewing um perhaps as a engineering manager they've been exposed to a lot of system design and architecture right it's it seems to me it's like a more natural thing that you start kind of zooming out from being directly in the code uh like I was saying like I still do code reviews when people put me on them but it's fortunate that I know the programming language like we use a lot of C# I know C# sharp, happy to go review it.

Um, but sometimes like in terms of benefiting the manager, sometimes that level of detail is not strictly necessary and quite frankly could be a distraction. But I find with like system design and architecture that can be a lot more on the same page um for what's valuable for an engineering manager, you know, knowing how parts of your system work and interact versus how certain classes and methods interact. big difference. So, I don't know what their their exposure is like, but if we assume that they've been exposed to um you know, more architecture conversations, system design, then like perhaps for interviewing their system design skills are where they need to be or or require, you know, some practice, but not not like starting from scratch. I I suspect that their their coding, you know, interview capabilities are probably pretty minimal. And I say that because I feel like most people's are unfortunately.

And I don't mean unfortunately that most people aren't practiced at it. I mean unfortunately because it's probably lead code and practicing that seems pretty useless to me unless it's a hobby of yours. So, because a lot of companies ask lead code style questions, if you haven't been doing lead code for fun, I think you probably got to brush up on it. If I were to leave Microsoft right now and start applying, I would absolutely have to go practice lead code. Even though I program every single day outside of work, why? Because lead code does not represent building real software. It just does not, but places ask it. So, I bet this guy's got to, you know, suffer through a little bit of that. I'm making some assumptions here, but again, if they're kind of nervous about the transition, then I think that's probably one more reason to add in.

Um yeah, the the the interview part I think will be tricky and not necessarily I think for some people um I think for a lot of people it's the resume part like I can't get noticed. I can't even get the interviews. But I think for someone in a position like this, sorry it's early and I was holding that yawn and trying to swallow it for a while. Um, I think for a person in a position like this where they have a lot of experience, it should be I'm not I don't want to use the word easy, but like I'm I'm I don't have a better word right now. It should be easier um than someone who's just starting out with no experience. I don't I I don't want to use the word easy because I don't want to minimize it, but relatively speaking, I think it should be a an easier time.

Um, but I think where it might be challenging is the interview. So, not the resume part, but the interview because the resume hopefully they can demonstrate a lot of impact. They'll have a lot of experience. So if they're trying to draw on their dev experience, like they have room to do that on a resume. So that's great. And then I think the interview part is probably going to be the most challenging where they'll probably do a, you know, they're better suited for the behavioral style interview questions. I find like as engineering managers, if you feel like if you're doing an okay job, you should probably be able to navigate those at least. um system design maybe uh not as great but hopefully had more exposure to that and then the coding stuff I think is going to be a challenge but that's all interview and

then I suspect that once they're getting started on the job it'll all come back like pretty quick right they've they've seen what has to happen with onboarding people over the past you know six years as being an engineering manager for them they've been in the industry for I I think that stuff will all come back pretty quick. Um so I'm just trying to think through this journey that they're going to be having to go on and uh that's kind of where I think they'll have the most friction. But couple of lane changes. One more. This guy's going below the speed limit. There's nothing like changing lanes into a lane where someone's going lower than the speed limit. Um, yeah, I think one of the last things I wanted to talk about for this kind of scenario, and sorry, this this video is a little bit all over the place.

I just thought it was an interesting topic. Um, I realize most of my videos are kind of like a here's what I recommend based on my experience. I just wanted to like think through this one together, but I got another yawn. Where are the comments? Get this man some caffeine. That's right. But I can't caffeinate before CrossFit because my heart rate's a problem already. And if I'm caffeinated, my heart rate's going to be a much bigger problem much sooner. So, it's a double-edged sword. I need caffeine to even be awake, but if I have caffeine, I can't do CrossFit. I'll die. I used to have a lot of caffeine before going to the gym for bodybuilding, but not for not for CrossFit. Um, the last thing I wanted to talk about for this engineering manager thing was just this like Oh, buddy. No, don't come over here.

That was dumb. Um, someone was pulling out onto the road, but they were going to come into my lane. I can't explain it cuz you can't see. Um, and then they didn't. They just turned onto the road and then turned back off. So, very weird. Um last thing. Yeah. So we have an individual that's been in the industry for 20 years and um six of those last six were engineering manager. They have 14 years of not that which means they have 14 years of being a individual contributor. And we have someone, you know, writing about this because they're concerned about that. The videos I was recording yesterday, I was saying like, you know, seemed one of the first times where I've been pretty overwhelmed by how much like AI scare there was. Um, and then I see, you know, a post like this and it's like, man, you got a lot of people regardless of their their experience level and walk of life that are like very concerned about about their future and stuff.

Um, which is unsettling. Um, like I don't know. Like when I say unsettling, I'm not like I'm not saying I'm unsettled because I'm convinced there's a problem. It's almost the opposite of that. It's unsettling for me because of how many people are convinced that. And um I think that's the part that bothers me the most is like I think that this kind of stuff becomes like a vicious cycle like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So for example, we know that it's really competitive to apply to jobs right now. Sorry, I guess it's not competitive to apply to the job. It's competitive to even get interviews. That's probably a better way to put it. um the job market itself is very competitive.

So if we don't keep that in mind and you apply to some places and you're like, "Oh, it's not working." Like what we what we need to do is try I know it's I'm not saying it's trivial but like we need to find ways to stay positive about it and make changes like focus on what we can control and try to take more steps going forward because it is quite literally the only way that it will work unless you wait for the job market to change which seems again hoping the job market changes is a pretty terrible strategy because hope is not a strategy. So, we got to focus on what we can control. Like, it it just it's going to be the only way that you can drive change where you can have something line up.

And what I get very nervous about is that people have this self-fulfilling prophecy where interviews they're not landing them or they land the interview, they don't do well or whatever, and then they start going like, I guess I'm not good enough, it's never going to work. And then as a result of that, they start believing it. And it's the exact opposite direction that things need to go. And that is the part that's unsettling for me is how many people are going to convince themselves you know that um that they're doomed and they weren't actually doomed but they've convinced themselves of it now. That bothers me. Um that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this. So anyway, hope that I don't know I don't know if that's helpful. Hope it was fun to talk through, think through, and uh if you have questions that you want answered, leave them below in the comments.

And otherwise, go to codecommute.com. Submit your questions there and be totally anonymous. Check out my main channel, Devleer, for programming tutorials. And I have two other channels that I am spinning off from that. So, Devleer path to tech will be resume reviews and interview help. And then the Devleer podcast. I'm moving my live streams and my podcast over to that channel. Check them all out if you're interested in those topics. That's the whole point. I'm separating them by topics. So, I will see you next time. Take care.