Technical Lead to Manager: How Do I Politely Say No?

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Hey folks, we are going to a submitted question from Twitter. This is from a viewer. It's not submitted anonymously, but I'll keep it anonymous and then that way if they uh want to comment on YouTube, they're welcome to do that. Um I don't know if they included their name and stuff just cuz it's convenient for me and I can reach out if need to answer anything more detail, but we'll keep it anonymous just because and I'll give them the flexibility. But the question, it's a little bit of a story with more detail. So, I'm going to go through this because I'm sitting at a computer. I might as well in the car. I don't have the luxury of doing this. And uh I'll leave out anything that's maybe a little bit uh overly specific. But they go on to say, "I've been operating as something of a technical lead for a while now.

I get to code most of the time, but they also get to have significant say in the technology and some decisions that would normally get made by like a product owner, which is great. Like I think that's a lot of um interesting things to be involved in. feel like I've been able to take the product uh uh built by this team from being uh reactive to proactive. Again, really great spot to be in. Very happy with the scope of the impact. Had a major companywide project coming up swapping out a third party system. It's kind of underpinned uh a lot of things the company's done since it was started. And that means their manager team is going to grow. Um and kind of seems like the manager right now is maybe having a little bit of trouble managing everyone. like pretty typical when there's growth and there's more coming.

So, he's asked me to think about uh it's not he says I know it's not a promise but asked me to think about stepping into a formal manager role. Okay, interesting. So, this is a relevant thing for me. This person knows this because they watch the channel, but uh you know early very early on in my career, I kind of just got put into an engineering manager role. I don't really know what I'm doing and here I am now like 13 years later. So um I'm I'm I'll try to share as much as I can on on this. Right. So uh then they say some context. We're smallish by some standards. Company somewhere between 250 to 300 employees. So for again context for my experience before I joined Microsoft the company I was at grew from around 7 people to about 250 to 300 employees. Um it's been uh around since the '9s.

So that's you know that's a significant amount of time. It's not like a brand new startup right. stayed fairly constrained in our market for most of the time. Past several years seen a lot of growth. Okay. Um and then he says for levels uh we have software developer one two three and a couple levels of manager. And so he's currently at the the top level software developer uh level that they have. Um, again, for some people this might be kind of weird because you might be like, "Well, what about like, you know, junior and like intermediate, like mid-level, then senior, then principal and staff and like whatever." Um, and like yeah, like not every place has that. It's It makes things kind of weird and interesting to navigate. Before I came to Microsoft, we had two levels of developer. We had developer and senior developer. And like I was a technical manager and that was a different track than manager and like there was nothing that you could go past a technical manager.

There was no career path. Like things are are different at different companies, right? And some places haven't figured it out yet. Some places they have something in place and they're good with it. So let's keep reading. Um and then they go on to say like this sort of situation kind of came out of left field. And they do acknowledge they've been kind of operating as a bit more of a you know a leader but more like technical and product kind of focus and they said like a tech lead right really don't have any interest in management in the sense of paperwork and dealing with people issues. Okay, this is important. I want to write code, build stuff, help our end users. Now, they go on to say, "Can you help with any advice on how to navigate this conversation without signaling that I'm not interested in further growth?" Right?

And if you've seen other videos that I I put out, like um a lot of people perceive manager like that the role as a promotion because often, unfortunately, that's how it's given to people. It's like, hey, you're doing, you know, all this and like, let's promote you to a manager. We'll give you more responsibilities. There's a pay increase with it. It's a different role. It's a different career path. It doesn't mean that you can't go back and forth, but like it's different. And so in my opinion it is very much not a promotion but you can like you can give someone a higher level and more uh compensation and more um responsibilities and you can like sort of turn it into a promotion but it's just literally a different role. Okay. So this person acknowledges that they say from watching code commute and their you know their own observations they know that that transition is not necessarily a promotion.

So that's great. Um on uh and then they said like they think that you know based on some of their experience I do think that they would be okay at it. So that's like not really the issue. It's more that they're just not really interested in what they're saying is like the HR stuff, right? And that is a big part of it. I think there's a lot of people that find themselves in a management position and their perspective is like I don't know I get to make decisions but like I don't have to deal with people and like I got news for you man like it is people and if it's not people first good luck um so this person gets it I have an idea of what I don't want to do that's great but how do I navigate this conversation so that I don't appear dismissive but make themselves clear.

Should I bring up the idea that we have a uh that we need a slot and maybe like a staff or principal level? So kind of like hey look like we only got like you know SD123 but like there there could be maybe something we expand um sort of in the software developer leveling. So that's interesting. They ask if there's another option and they don't want to like they're not jumping ship or anything like that. They like the company like the people like the work they're learning. They want to stick around. Um, but like how do you how do you deal with this? Right. So, I think this is a great question. I really love that this person's kind of pausing to go like, okay, um, from their own experience and it feels kind of cool to be like, hey, like some of the stuff that I talk about, they're kind of observing this as well.

This is an opportunity. It's probably framed like a promotion because that's often how it comes across, but they're pausing to go, "Hey, look, I'm not sure if that's necessarily for me." So, I want to start my sort of side of this by saying that um before I came to Microsoft, when I was working at Magnet Forensics, I had two people that had reported to me at different points in time. Two people that I thought would be amazing managers, absolutely amazing. And I say that because not only are they like technically brilliant and I think that that goes a really long way in management. I don't think it's, you know, fundamentally required that you must be the most technical person as a software engineering manager. I think it helps. I think it helps a lot, but I don't think it's like the most required thing because you end up doing more with people.

But both of these individuals were amazing with people. amazing mentors, really good communicators, very patient to work with people, but also um as like as leaders, right? Like I don't see them as people that would hold back. Like they're going to speak their mind. They're going to be constructive about it. They're going to find like just all around amazing. And I had talked to both of these individuals when I managed them and said, "What are your thoughts on like kind of moving in this direction?" And both individuals said something just like this person. They said, "Hey, thanks. That's interesting, but like nah, like not for me. Like don't really want to deal with the people side of things. I'm happy to mentor people, happy to coach, happy to do that, but like I don't want that sort of responsibility, right? I want to focus on the technical part." Very much like this person's saying.

And we had these conversations and I said, "No worries. It's really good for me to understand as a manager the things that you do want to spend more time on. So when I got that feedback and this is not the same conversation with both of these individuals like I sat them down together. It's just like the conversation happened individually. It's just that it came out the same way. And having that feedback from them was good so that I'm not like pushing them into something where they're like no thanks. and they were clear like, hey, you know, if there's interns or new team members or like more junior people, I'm happy to help, but I don't want you to like necessarily put me into positions where it's like go go manage things. They're like interns is is one thing, onboarding people is one thing, but like I don't I don't want that responsibility of dealing with people, but I do like this.

I do like that. So like great, now I have clarity on on their interests, right? So, first part that I want to say to this person is like I think that it's totally fair to be very clear about what you want for growth, what your interests are. Um, they I don't know like they I don't know if it's like kind of joking or not, but like I know what I don't like. I feel the same way. There's some things where I'm like I know I don't like that, right? Like even talking to my wife about what to like if we're going to order in food. I'm like there's sometimes I'm like I really know what I don't want but sometimes what I do want I'm not really sure because there's some options to explore. Sorry my my cold. So knowing what you don't want, I think is very important because you can still communicate that and you can do that in ways that aren't dismissive, right?

Being like, "Hey, as this person wrote to me, the way they wrote it to me in this message, I don't feel like is dismissive." I think that's very fair to be like, "Hey, like those are things that I I don't find engaging, right?" And if there's things peripheral to that like the examples I was giving where it's like mentoring people you know helping on board like based on what this person is saying and what I believe I understand about them I don't think they have any issue with that right so you can call out those types of things I'm not dismissing working with people I don't want the responsibility of the HR side of things of like the people responsibility right there's a difference between like being held accountable, having responsibility over versus being able to contribute to it. Okay. So, I think that the way that they wrote even some of this to me is helpful framing.

I would uh recommend they they come up with communication like that. Um they're talking about maybe proposing some, you know, some levels or some changes to roles and stuff for developers. I think that's a great conversation to have. I genuinely don't know enough about the company. It's been around for a while. Um I don't know what their sort of appetite for that is. If I imagine where I was working before Microsoft I like personally I would be very open to a conversation like that. Since I left that place since I left Magnet Forensics they had gone and introduced I think they have like staff and other levels of developers. I don't know how many but like they did change that and rightfully so. I think it was time that they they had to explore it. But if if someone was having this conversation with me and I was at a company of that size in a management position, they were even restructuring management positions for me.

Um, you know, talking about like what does director look like because the only director path was from non-technical managers. There was it was weird. So they're trying to come up with that for me. So it's like things were in flux. If if someone was like, "Hey, Nick, like we only have developer and senior. Like are there talks about this?" is like, is this an opportunity to explore? We were exploring like ar like more formal architect roles cuz we had some historically. It was a little weird. Um I feel like we didn't set up architects for success because it was like hired as an architect and then put on an island and then it was like you're not going to be successful because no one knows what the heck you're trying to to do. It was just really bizarre.

But if someone was like, "Hey, I here's something I'm thinking like I would like to listen to it and if it makes sense like maybe work with them to advocate for it." So, I think that's a great thing. I just I just don't know based on where they're working the appetite for it. But I would encourage that if there's a good working relationship with the manager and if um if they're in this position or if you listening to this are in a similar spot. Hey, like I think it's always worth the conversation, right? It's about your expectations. If you're like, hey, if they don't do this, I'm going to be pissed off that I would be like maybe temper your expectations. But if you're like, maybe I could talk about this and see if there's an interest. And if it doesn't happen, okay, at least I got to talk about it.

I think that's a great thing to consider. Okay. So, so far, just to kind of recap, I think it's worth uh talking about the things that you're not interested in. I think that's totally fair. If you want to propose uh alternatives in terms of roles and levels and stuff like that because they're already talking about like maybe a bit of a change, I think that's worth pursuing. Um, I don't think that you're being dismissive or closing doors by expressing that, especially if you want to back it up and be like, "Hey, like there are these like people related to things like coaching, mentoring that I'm willing or happy to do." I think that's great to include. Um, is there another option? I mean like I don't know like maybe formalizing they said principal or staff level. I mean like formalizing tech lead roles, that kind of thing could be another option.

Um, depending on your interest and what you want to be able to do, like is there a formal architect role? Like it's kind of the same thing around staff principle and like changing up leveling just like different characteristics for role responsibilities. The whole point is maybe pitching some different type of role or level totally valid I would say. Um, let's see what else. Um, this person to me seems like they've kind of made up their mind about like the people side isn't really for them. So, I guess I'm agreeing with what they've written in as being a viable like I think that's a totally fine conversation to have. The thing that I want to put back to them is like the I brought up those two examples from my own experience for a very specific reason. It's because both of those individuals I talked about ended up going on to become managers.

Before I left Magnet Forensics, one of them became a manager. So, we were peers. No longer were they reporting to me. They became a manager. And since I've left, I'm not sure if both of them are, but at least the other one went on to become a manager and is now a director and has managers reporting to him. So he is he is literally has in the time that I have left has gone from being someone who is a reporter of mine to not only being sort of at the same level that I was at, but also now has a role that is technically higher than what I have at Microsoft in terms of a like reporting structure, right? Like I am not a director. I'm not a senior manager. I don't have managers that report to me. This person does. So, these are two individuals that went on to to basically lead people in a people management position.

And I think that like I don't work with them uh you know at Microsoft. They they still work where they're at at Magnet. And I'm confident that they do a tremendous job because I know what they're like as people, right? So I'm not I'm just kind of sharing this because um you you might not want those responsibilities right now and that might be great like if you want to focus on more product and you want to focus on software absolutely um just you know maybe keep it in mind because uh you might find like maybe this isn't the opportunity right now and that is the right decision for you totally fine right I think it's important that you focus on the growth areas you want maybe keep that in mind, right?

Like the next time there is an opportunity like maybe it's not like no no no not for me maybe it's time in the future year 2 5 years whatever maybe that is an interesting opportunity for different types of growth but I don't think there's anything wrong with saying no certainly those people to me a few years back said no right and they just in this case they happen to both do very well in people leadership roles but I'm sure that they would still do absolutely amazing in pure technical roles too. So, um I think that it's important that you that you take some direction with your career and like focus on the areas that you want to grow. Um I was always asked by my HR leader at Magnet Forensics.

She it like I don't know on the cadence but like every year we would have this conversation where she would say hey have you you know no pressure are you deciding more towards like you know hands-on more architecture like staying in the software side of things or like people like do do you have a preference are you seeing it go one way or the other and I would tell her every year I have no idea because I do love building software but I find that I'm having more impact the more that I take my hands >> >> So, um I it it just keeps keeps us grounded thinking about the areas we want to grow into. Okay. So, um with all of that said, I think that it's totally acceptable to to be clear about what you're hoping for in ter terms of growth. What you're hoping for in terms of growth and um the way that this is written to me does not feel dismissive.

So, um you could even say, "Hey, like maybe not right now, like in the future would be interested in that. Um doubling down on the parts that you do want to have some responsibility over, right? Because if this person's saying, "Hey, the team's going to be growing." If it's not a manager role, and you're like, "Hey, but if there's growth, like, are there more responsibilities I can take on?" That's great, right? Be clear about those. This is a great opportunity to be like, "I like doing X, Y, and Z." like we're growing. Can I get more responsibility for X, Y, and Z? Right. So, overall, um, yeah, I think this person's on the right track. I think they're I think the awareness that they have and the questions that they're asking to try and navigate are like you know 85% of the battle going into

this kind of thing without like without some thought process and just being like ooh like promotion or like oo different role like yeah let's go like it's good to pause and be like what does this actually mean? So um yeah I think that's what I'd have to say. Um, for the person that wrote this in, you know that if you want to ask more, please do either comment if you're comfortable asking publicly and if not, send me a message. You know where to find me, obviously. Um, but I I love this. I think this is a great topic. I hope that um I hope that came through clear and um I do appreciate you sending this in. So, folks, if you have questions, this person wrote a mini novel and I'm very appreciative of it. So, you can write in at codeccommute.com anonymously or provide some uh you know some information if you want me to be able to reach back out and get clarification.

Um, but you can do it totally anonymously or just leave a comment below in the videos and I'm happy to do a video response for you. So, thanks again and I will see you in the next video. Take care.